Simple Question: DV to 24p at DVinfo.net

Jay Cowley · June 28th, 2005, 01:58 PM

I just want to know if it is possible to take raw footage from a regular miniDV camera, and convert it to 24p without getting that choppy look, and if so how.

Ash Greyson · June 28th, 2005, 03:27 PM

It is not hard but it requires knowing how to shoot it BEFORE you dump it into your editor. Here is what I have found to look best...

- if you can soften the image in camera by adjusting the sharpness ALL the way down, then do

- shoot in INTERLACED mode, not 30P

- shoot with the shutter at 1/60

- shoot with slow cinematic moves and control the DOF as much as possible

You can then use any number of software deinterlacers... the most popular on PC is Magic Bullet....

ash =o)

Joshua Provost · June 28th, 2005, 03:51 PM

Jay, all 24p has a bit of "choppiness" when compared with 60i. If you go head to head looking at the same footage in 24p and 60i you will certainly notice the effect. However, this is really the same as with actual film. If you put your 24p head to head with a film on DVD, the motion will be pretty much the same.

It's all perception.

The one thing that exacerbates the choppiness is in-focus backgrounds because of the deep depth of field of consumer camcorders. So, avoid crazy camera moves. Keep them slow and smooth.

Jay Cowley · June 28th, 2005, 08:36 PM

I know its going to be a bit choppy, but when I attempted to convert from regular video to 24p it was much too choppy, not at all what I wanted or what 24p is supposed to look like.

Patrick Jenkins · June 28th, 2005, 10:24 PM

Here's some 60i->24p I'm pretty pleased with (Vegas 6).

http://www.twodogfilms.com/Patrick/24p.mov

Joshua Provost · June 29th, 2005, 12:19 AM

Jay,

There are innumerable methods to do the conversion, all with their pros and cons. Can you tell us how you did it, and we can offer some suggestions?

Josh

Jay Cowley · June 29th, 2005, 09:11 PM

First of all I have Media Studio Pro 7

I captured the video from my camera as regular DV Type AVI
then brought the video into Video Editor and re exported it.

However when I exported it, I choose DV Encoder 24P (2:3:3:2)

When I watched this, the video was just plain messed, a lot more choppy then it possibly should be. I know how film is slightly stuttery, but this was much more than that.

Joshua Provost · June 29th, 2005, 11:10 PM

Jay,

2:3:3:2 also known as 24P Advanced is a storage format, not a playback format. For regular viewing you'll want normal 2:3 pulldown.

Josh

Jay Cowley · June 30th, 2005, 09:31 AM

so if I do that same thing, only select the 2:3 codec, I will be properly converting 60i video to 24P?

Joshua Provost · June 30th, 2005, 11:53 AM

Jay,

No, not all. That's not a good way to convert to 24p, but it will be smoother than 2:3:3:2 in any case.

Converting 60i to 24p, interlaced to progressive, indicates some form of deinterlacing to create full progressive frames without interlacing artifacts. Also, since 24 does not go evenly into 60, the conversion needs to use some method of lining up or sampling to compensate for the different cadence.

Each NLE or stand-alone software package for 24p conversion uses some varying method to do the deinterlacing and the time compensation. It varies significantly from product to product and each different approach has pros and cons in how much detail is preserved in the image, how smooth the motion looks, and potentially artifacts from the method used.

I don't recall anyone here discussing Media Studio Pro 7, and what it does. There has been much discussion about Premiere, Vegas, DVFilm Maker, Magic Bullet, Nattress, and some others.

A simple test of what MSP7 is doing would be to export and post a short clip. We can take a look at it and see if we can reverse engineer what it is up to. However, simply exporting to a 2:3 format is not generally considered "conversion" to 24p.

Everything I read on the Ulead site indicates MSP7 supports editing footage "shot" at 24p on a DVX100A or XL2, not that it converts 60i to 24p.

Jay Cowley · June 30th, 2005, 09:24 PM

I don't know how to post video on the internet, but from what I saw from the rendering video, some of it worked fine, only slightly less smooth the the original video, but some was really shaky, and didn't look right at all. I wasn't sure if this was my computer having difficulty playing the video, or if it just didn't work

Jeff Baker · July 2nd, 2005, 11:40 AM

I have tried the vegas 6 60i to 24p 2:3 conversion to mpeg2 for DVD (all templates in vegas 6) and it is by far the easiest and best conversion for DVD that I have managed to create. Magic Bullet and Fields Kit, while they might de-interlace a little better did not give the same smooth playing result as Vegas does. And the workflow is much faster, so I would at least give that a try.

Johnny Lucus · July 3rd, 2005, 04:52 PM

I just got Vegas 6 and I was wondering how you go about converting 60i to 24p using the 2:3:3:2 pulldown. Thanks a lot!

EDIT: I found out how to render as 24p, 2-3-3-2 pulldown as an AVI, but how can I Render it as an Mpeg2? All there are for templates is like DVD NTSC, and then there is a DVD Architect 24p stream, but no options for a 2:3:3:2 pulldown for mpeg2.

June 28th, 2005, 01:58 PM	#1
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	Simple Question: DV to 24p I just want to know if it is possible to take raw footage from a regular miniDV camera, and convert it to 24p without getting that choppy look, and if so how.

June 28th, 2005, 03:51 PM	#3
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Jay, all 24p has a bit of "choppiness" when compared with 60i. If you go head to head looking at the same footage in 24p and 60i you will certainly notice the effect. However, this is really the same as with actual film. If you put your 24p head to head with a film on DVD, the motion will be pretty much the same. It's all perception. The one thing that exacerbates the choppiness is in-focus backgrounds because of the deep depth of field of consumer camcorders. So, avoid crazy camera moves. Keep them slow and smooth. __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

June 28th, 2005, 10:24 PM	#5
Patrick Jenkins Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 382	Here's some 60i->24p I'm pretty pleased with (Vegas 6). http://www.twodogfilms.com/Patrick/24p.mov __________________ PAL shooter in NTSC territory

June 29th, 2005, 12:19 AM	#6
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Jay, There are innumerable methods to do the conversion, all with their pros and cons. Can you tell us how you did it, and we can offer some suggestions? Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

June 29th, 2005, 11:10 PM	#8
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Jay, 2:3:3:2 also known as 24P Advanced is a storage format, not a playback format. For regular viewing you'll want normal 2:3 pulldown. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

June 28th, 2005, 03:27 PM	#2
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	It is not hard but it requires knowing how to shoot it BEFORE you dump it into your editor. Here is what I have found to look best... - if you can soften the image in camera by adjusting the sharpness ALL the way down, then do - shoot in INTERLACED mode, not 30P - shoot with the shutter at 1/60 - shoot with slow cinematic moves and control the DOF as much as possible You can then use any number of software deinterlacers... the most popular on PC is Magic Bullet.... ash =o)

June 28th, 2005, 08:36 PM	#4
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	I know its going to be a bit choppy, but when I attempted to convert from regular video to 24p it was much too choppy, not at all what I wanted or what 24p is supposed to look like.

June 29th, 2005, 09:11 PM	#7
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	First of all I have Media Studio Pro 7 I captured the video from my camera as regular DV Type AVI then brought the video into Video Editor and re exported it. However when I exported it, I choose DV Encoder 24P (2:3:3:2) When I watched this, the video was just plain messed, a lot more choppy then it possibly should be. I know how film is slightly stuttery, but this was much more than that.

June 30th, 2005, 09:31 AM	#9
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	so if I do that same thing, only select the 2:3 codec, I will be properly converting 60i video to 24P?

June 30th, 2005, 11:53 AM	#10
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Jay, No, not all. That's not a good way to convert to 24p, but it will be smoother than 2:3:3:2 in any case. Converting 60i to 24p, interlaced to progressive, indicates some form of deinterlacing to create full progressive frames without interlacing artifacts. Also, since 24 does not go evenly into 60, the conversion needs to use some method of lining up or sampling to compensate for the different cadence. Each NLE or stand-alone software package for 24p conversion uses some varying method to do the deinterlacing and the time compensation. It varies significantly from product to product and each different approach has pros and cons in how much detail is preserved in the image, how smooth the motion looks, and potentially artifacts from the method used. I don't recall anyone here discussing Media Studio Pro 7, and what it does. There has been much discussion about Premiere, Vegas, DVFilm Maker, Magic Bullet, Nattress, and some others. A simple test of what MSP7 is doing would be to export and post a short clip. We can take a look at it and see if we can reverse engineer what it is up to. However, simply exporting to a 2:3 format is not generally considered "conversion" to 24p. Everything I read on the Ulead site indicates MSP7 supports editing footage "shot" at 24p on a DVX100A or XL2, not that it converts 60i to 24p. __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

June 30th, 2005, 09:24 PM	#11
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	I don't know how to post video on the internet, but from what I saw from the rendering video, some of it worked fine, only slightly less smooth the the original video, but some was really shaky, and didn't look right at all. I wasn't sure if this was my computer having difficulty playing the video, or if it just didn't work

July 2nd, 2005, 11:40 AM	#12
Jeff Baker Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Northampton, MA Posts: 184	I have tried the vegas 6 60i to 24p 2:3 conversion to mpeg2 for DVD (all templates in vegas 6) and it is by far the easiest and best conversion for DVD that I have managed to create. Magic Bullet and Fields Kit, while they might de-interlace a little better did not give the same smooth playing result as Vegas does. And the workflow is much faster, so I would at least give that a try. __________________ Canon C100, 5D3

July 3rd, 2005, 04:52 PM	#13
Johnny Lucus New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 7	I just got Vegas 6 and I was wondering how you go about converting 60i to 24p using the 2:3:3:2 pulldown. Thanks a lot! EDIT: I found out how to render as 24p, 2-3-3-2 pulldown as an AVI, but how can I Render it as an Mpeg2? All there are for templates is like DVD NTSC, and then there is a DVD Architect 24p stream, but no options for a 2:3:3:2 pulldown for mpeg2. Last edited by Johnny Lucus; July 3rd, 2005 at 05:35 PM.