who's got 24 p.frames out of 60i, without blended fields every 2/3 frames ? at DVinfo.net

Roberto Lanczos · August 15th, 2005, 02:23 PM

DVFilm don't convince me entirely, because of the blended fields every 2 or 3 frames.

vegas is the same story.

With MB is still jerky, even with the shutter at 1/60.

Everybody talks about nattress, but i'm in windows enviroment.

------------

A long time has passed since some said it was impossible to get smooth 24-Look out of 60i. Any luck yet?, or we are still stuck with the jerkyness?

Glenn Chan · August 15th, 2005, 06:05 PM

1- You NEED to watch the footage play back on a CRT-based TV or broadcast monitor, if that is your target format. Things look very different on TV compared to a computer monitor.

2- If you're playing things back on a computer monitor you may see blended fields from the 3:2 pulldown. You can avoid this by using a 24p project... but a computer monitor is still totally off from what you'd see on a TV.

3- You may find 24p jerky because it is only 24 frames per second. Higher frames per second would give you smoother motion... you can try 60i --> 30p. 60i would give you smoother motion, although subjectively you may like the look of 30p better.

Look at adaptive deinterlacers like Mike Crash's one for Vegas (free/donation). Set it up in a progressive project, not upper/lower field first. Turn off Vegas deinterlacing.

Roberto Lanczos · August 15th, 2005, 06:19 PM

I'm working with some cartoons that are actually at 12fps, and i'm planning to duplicate that, to make it 24fps.

So i need backgrounds from real life, at 24 progressive, but i want to prevent those blended fields that happens sometimes with dvfilm and vegas. Because that kills the scense of the drawings, and it doesn't look right.

I'm looking for a 24p conversion like magic bullet, but a little bit smoother, and less jerky. PLAIN stills, no blendings is more what i'm looking for, MB does it, but it moves a little bit strange.

Any tip will be appreciated, thanks in advance.

I'm using a samsung DVcam with shutter at (1/60).

Boyd Ostroff · August 15th, 2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

Things look very different on TV compared to a computer monitor.

I know this is the traditional wisdom, but just wonder how long it will hold true? More and more people are watching TV on LCD panels, plasma screen, video projectors, RP DLP screens, etc. 11 million flat screen TV's sold in 2004, 21 million in 2005, 32 million projected for 2006. Seems like it will soon be a force to be reckoned with (see: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49289).

Of course I suppose there might still be a difference between TV which is broadcast over cable and what you see on your computer monitor however.

Patrick Jenkins · August 15th, 2005, 09:46 PM

There's really no way to do it simply by remapping fields - the math just doesn't work. The only way to get smooth 24p out of 60i (60p) is to use a program like Twixtor to time remap / reconstruct the whole thing (very slow - which is why field blending is usually good enough).

Twixtor works by taking two distinct keyframes (frame or field) and generating the appropriate frames between them based on the motion traveled of each individual pixel. Rather than trying to do funky field shifting, it reconstructs every frame. You can do everything from simple 60i -> 24p to 99p to 76i to amazing Hollywood slowmos.

If you've ever seen the greenscreen footage of the Matrix slow mo revolving sequences, you've got a good example of how Twixtor/time reconstruction works.

Roberto Lanczos · August 16th, 2005, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Jenkins

There's really no way to do it simply by remapping fields - the math just doesn't work.

You're da#n right, that's why i'm here, to check if we still are stuck with that little problem :D

I tried twixtor in the past, but i couldn't get my eyes tuned enough, to see what was really going on. All this idea of going back with twixtor, makes me want to shoot myself on face. On the balls too BTW.

Riley Harmon · August 16th, 2005, 03:09 AM

Use Cinema Tools if you're on a Mac to do a reverse telecine on the footage, basically you'll end up with 23.976 interlaced footage, then apply an adaptive deinterlacer. Same method with 30p or frame mode footage minus the deinterlacing of course. On a PC you can use AE to get the same resulsts using their pulldown remover. It's kind of a testing process. I've gotten some pretty good results.

Glenn Chan · August 16th, 2005, 07:30 AM

Are you saying you don't like the motion blur? In that case, there should be a way to shoot with a very high shutter in 60i and discard most of the frames.

Or the interlaced jaggies / venetian blind effect that happens from 3:2 pulldown? (Which won't happen in a 24p project, which is what you should work in.)

Joshua Provost · August 16th, 2005, 07:33 AM

Robert,

The reverse telecine to 23.976, then run it through DVFilm Maker with only the "deinterlace when motion is present" and no editing options, and you'll get the full frames you are looking for.

Warning, however, you can't really edit the footage, because the fields selected assumes a certain 2:3 pulldown order on playback. If you edit and end up off by a single frame, it'll being showing short frames for a long period of time and long frames for a short period of time, and it will be very stuttery.

So, that is sort of a last step if you edit in 60i, then convert to 24p last.

Really, the blended frames bothered me at first, but you can't tell on playback. And a side effect of the blend is that it prevents the motion from getting too stuttery. So, it looks weird while editing, but it's fine on a TV.

Josh

Roberto Lanczos · August 16th, 2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Provost

The reverse telecine to 23.976, then run it through DVFilm Maker with only the "deinterlace when motion is present" and no editing options, and you'll get the full frames you are looking for.

Thanks for the tip Joshua, i'll give it a try.

Laurence Kingston · September 15th, 2005, 10:34 PM

If you just use a DVD playback program like WinDVD or PowerDVD instead of Media Player, you can play back the 30 fps (24p spread among 30 frames with a 3:2 puldown) and see the proper 24 progressive frames played back on your computer monitor.

DJ Kinney · September 17th, 2005, 03:48 PM

Just for my info: why does media player not do this and PowerDVD does? Is there an option that can be set in the preferences?

August 15th, 2005, 02:23 PM	#1
Roberto Lanczos Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	who's got 24 p.frames out of 60i, without blended fields every 2/3 frames ? DVFilm don't convince me entirely, because of the blended fields every 2 or 3 frames. vegas is the same story. With MB is still jerky, even with the shutter at 1/60. Everybody talks about nattress, but i'm in windows enviroment. ------------ A long time has passed since some said it was impossible to get smooth 24-Look out of 60i. Any luck yet?, or we are still stuck with the jerkyness?

August 15th, 2005, 09:46 PM	#5
Patrick Jenkins Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 382	There's really no way to do it simply by remapping fields - the math just doesn't work. The only way to get smooth 24p out of 60i (60p) is to use a program like Twixtor to time remap / reconstruct the whole thing (very slow - which is why field blending is usually good enough). Twixtor works by taking two distinct keyframes (frame or field) and generating the appropriate frames between them based on the motion traveled of each individual pixel. Rather than trying to do funky field shifting, it reconstructs every frame. You can do everything from simple 60i -> 24p to 99p to 76i to amazing Hollywood slowmos. If you've ever seen the greenscreen footage of the Matrix slow mo revolving sequences, you've got a good example of how Twixtor/time reconstruction works. __________________ PAL shooter in NTSC territory

August 16th, 2005, 07:33 AM	#9
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Robert, The reverse telecine to 23.976, then run it through DVFilm Maker with only the "deinterlace when motion is present" and no editing options, and you'll get the full frames you are looking for. Warning, however, you can't really edit the footage, because the fields selected assumes a certain 2:3 pulldown order on playback. If you edit and end up off by a single frame, it'll being showing short frames for a long period of time and long frames for a short period of time, and it will be very stuttery. So, that is sort of a last step if you edit in 60i, then convert to 24p last. Really, the blended frames bothered me at first, but you can't tell on playback. And a side effect of the blend is that it prevents the motion from getting too stuttery. So, it looks weird while editing, but it's fine on a TV. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

August 15th, 2005, 06:05 PM	#2
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	1- You NEED to watch the footage play back on a CRT-based TV or broadcast monitor, if that is your target format. Things look very different on TV compared to a computer monitor. 2- If you're playing things back on a computer monitor you may see blended fields from the 3:2 pulldown. You can avoid this by using a 24p project... but a computer monitor is still totally off from what you'd see on a TV. 3- You may find 24p jerky because it is only 24 frames per second. Higher frames per second would give you smoother motion... you can try 60i --> 30p. 60i would give you smoother motion, although subjectively you may like the look of 30p better. Look at adaptive deinterlacers like Mike Crash's one for Vegas (free/donation). Set it up in a progressive project, not upper/lower field first. Turn off Vegas deinterlacing.

August 15th, 2005, 06:19 PM	#3
Roberto Lanczos Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	I'm working with some cartoons that are actually at 12fps, and i'm planning to duplicate that, to make it 24fps. So i need backgrounds from real life, at 24 progressive, but i want to prevent those blended fields that happens sometimes with dvfilm and vegas. Because that kills the scense of the drawings, and it doesn't look right. I'm looking for a 24p conversion like magic bullet, but a little bit smoother, and less jerky. PLAIN stills, no blendings is more what i'm looking for, MB does it, but it moves a little bit strange. Any tip will be appreciated, thanks in advance. I'm using a samsung DVcam with shutter at (1/60).

August 16th, 2005, 03:09 AM	#7
Riley Harmon Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 424	Use Cinema Tools if you're on a Mac to do a reverse telecine on the footage, basically you'll end up with 23.976 interlaced footage, then apply an adaptive deinterlacer. Same method with 30p or frame mode footage minus the deinterlacing of course. On a PC you can use AE to get the same resulsts using their pulldown remover. It's kind of a testing process. I've gotten some pretty good results.

August 16th, 2005, 07:30 AM	#8
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Are you saying you don't like the motion blur? In that case, there should be a way to shoot with a very high shutter in 60i and discard most of the frames. Or the interlaced jaggies / venetian blind effect that happens from 3:2 pulldown? (Which won't happen in a 24p project, which is what you should work in.)

September 15th, 2005, 10:34 PM	#11
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	If you just use a DVD playback program like WinDVD or PowerDVD instead of Media Player, you can play back the 30 fps (24p spread among 30 frames with a 3:2 puldown) and see the proper 24 progressive frames played back on your computer monitor.

September 17th, 2005, 03:48 PM	#12
DJ Kinney Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 277	Just for my info: why does media player not do this and PowerDVD does? Is there an option that can be set in the preferences?