Artificial Depth of Field

Eric Brown · September 25th, 2005, 04:31 PM

I think there are probably more ways than shallow DOF to achieve the end result of DOF, if that makes sense.
Obviously, shallow DOF helps to draw our eyes to a particular subject within the frame by isolating that subject by its sharper focus.
But, for me at least, the thing that stands out the most in this equation is the "draws the eye" part.
Aside from shallow DOF there are other ways to achieve isolating your subject that are related more to lighting, color palette and composition.
Remember, cool colors recede in an image and warm colors pop forward.
(I think this ties into the 3D eye-wear stuff for 3D movies, perhaps?).
You can isolate your subject this way if the story or moment allows.
Strong compositions can also be utilized to move our eyes to a particular point on the screen, same with lighting.
Shallow DOF is a very powerful device,I use it myself and who wouldn't if they could, but it's not the only tool in the tool box to achieve the desired effect in question in cinematic storytelling.

Bill Porter · September 25th, 2005, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Butterfield

How do you create a feeling of depth in an image without utilising focus (DoF)?

In films there appears to be a clear z-axis visible in long shots. Wheras Video somehow shortens this into a more 2-dimensional image. Does a wide angle lens create a more clearly defined perspective? And is this the answer?

As far as the wide angle, no. A wide angle up close is one way to try to create an out of focus background. The other way which give the appearance of an out-of-focus background is zoom in as much as possible, moving the camera back as necessary.

But as far as creating a feeling of depth in an image without utilizing focus, Eric Brown said it great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Emory

I know how you could do the tricks in After Effects, Photoshop, etc., but how does software like Final Focus perform this trick? How does it seperate what you want and then soften it?

I haven't seen that software. Can you provide a link to it?
But without seeing it I would assume you'd have to mask off the parts you wanted to separate.

James Emory · September 26th, 2005, 05:47 AM

I don't use any of that software but I wish I knew how. Here is a link to some demos of what I am talking about but with still images.

Post with demos
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....69&postcount=7

Thread
www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=46901

Jack Barker · September 26th, 2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Porter

I haven't seen that software. Can you provide a link to it?
But without seeing it I would assume you'd have to mask off the parts you wanted to separate.

I posted this earlier when I mentioned the software.
http://www.reiji.net/ff-e/

James Emory · September 26th, 2005, 07:53 AM

Ooops. I thought he was talking about After Effects and Photoshop. Oh well, those demos show how it can be done with these tools.

Eki Halkka · October 23rd, 2005, 05:28 PM

Here's a video where we did all the DOF in post production, in After Effects. The video is all greenscreen, shoth with Sony HDR-FX1, and the BG's are 3D. In some shots, we used hand drawn masks for the DOF areas.

http://www.poetsofthefall.com/videos/lift/

Charles Papert · October 23rd, 2005, 07:09 PM

Eki, that's extraordinary work. Can you give some more info about the production? And ALL of the backgrounds were green-screen, so you tracked them when the camera moved (some closups of the singer seemed fairly complicated)?

Giroud Francois · October 23rd, 2005, 11:36 PM

you do not need green screen.
use Mokey to have background and subject separated, then recomposite using the mask+blurr.
with mokey you can track a full scene with 5 mouse clicks.

Eki Halkka · October 24th, 2005, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Papert

Eki, that's extraordinary work. Can you give some more info about the production? And ALL of the backgrounds were green-screen, so you tracked them when the camera moved (some closups of the singer seemed fairly complicated)?

Thanks for the compliments!

There were four kinds of camera motions in the video:

1. Real camera moves with track / dolly / steadicam, tracked in 3D, with the 3D camera matched to the real camera move (most moving wide shots).

2. Real camera moves with track / dolly / steadicam, with a single frame of the BG rendered in 3D, tracked to match camera moves in 2D in after effects.

3. Full 3D animation camera moves, with the talents shot with locked off camera as separate elements and used as "cards" in 3D environment.

4. 2D moves in AE, shot with locked off camera. Motion parallax makes even these look pretty much like real camera moves.

Sean McHenry · October 24th, 2005, 08:38 AM

Wow. Very nice.

Sean McHenry

Adrian Vallarino · October 24th, 2005, 12:24 PM

Erik, can you tell us the original setting used on the FX1 while shooting?

Be as detailed as you can.

Thanks in advance!!

Eki Halkka · October 24th, 2005, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian Vallarino

Erik, can you tell us the original setting used on the FX1 while shooting?

Be as detailed as you can.

Thanks in advance!!

It's Eki, or Erkki - Erik is a Swedish name, i'm a Finn ;-)

Settings (as far as i can remember):

HDV 50i
Cineframe OFF
Cinegamma OFF
Black stretch ON
Gain OFF
Tungsten preset WB
Shutter 1/50
Skin detail etc. OFF (We did heavy smoothing on esp. the female face in post though)
Detail 5 (i was overly conservative, 8 would have been better it seems, after doing more testing - i was overly afraid of sharpening artifacts)

The iris was wide open, we adjusted the lights to match...

Lighting was done with one big (roughly 7mX7m) butterfly diffuser on top of the stage on all shots, lit from above. No additional lights i recall. This was half artistic and half logistic decision: we only had one day to shoot the vid, this worked well enough on all shots, from all angles.

We used green screen - due to the way mpg2 compression works, it's MUCH better than blue. See this:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/erkki.halkka/...nd_keying.html

John McGinley · October 24th, 2005, 04:58 PM

Yo Eki,

I think you're following me.

Anywho, you were using a HVR-Z1. The FX1 doesn't have black stretch.

Bill Porter · October 24th, 2005, 07:19 PM

Isn't being Swedish and being Finnish basically the same thing?

:ducking:

Eki Halkka · October 25th, 2005, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Porter

Isn't being Swedish and being Finnish basically the same thing?

:ducking:

Grrrmblblbbbll....

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McGinley

Yo Eki,

I think you're following me.

Anywho, you were using a HVR-Z1. The FX1 doesn't have black stretch.

;-)

...yep, it was HVR-Z1. I always get those two mixed up in my head...

edit: sent too soon, forgoth the 2nd quote...

October 23rd, 2005, 07:09 PM	#22
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Eki, that's extraordinary work. Can you give some more info about the production? And ALL of the backgrounds were green-screen, so you tracked them when the camera moved (some closups of the singer seemed fairly complicated)? __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

October 24th, 2005, 08:38 AM	#25
Sean McHenry Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hilliard, Ohio Posts: 1,193	Wow. Very nice. Sean McHenry __________________ ‘I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m shooting on D.V.’ - my hero - David Lynch http://www.DeepBlueEdit.com

October 24th, 2005, 12:24 PM	#26
Adrian Vallarino Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bevery Hills, CA Posts: 48	Erik, settings? Erik, can you tell us the original setting used on the FX1 while shooting? Be as detailed as you can. Thanks in advance!!

September 25th, 2005, 04:31 PM	#16
Eric Brown Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 427	I think there are probably more ways than shallow DOF to achieve the end result of DOF, if that makes sense. Obviously, shallow DOF helps to draw our eyes to a particular subject within the frame by isolating that subject by its sharper focus. But, for me at least, the thing that stands out the most in this equation is the "draws the eye" part. Aside from shallow DOF there are other ways to achieve isolating your subject that are related more to lighting, color palette and composition. Remember, cool colors recede in an image and warm colors pop forward. (I think this ties into the 3D eye-wear stuff for 3D movies, perhaps?). You can isolate your subject this way if the story or moment allows. Strong compositions can also be utilized to move our eyes to a particular point on the screen, same with lighting. Shallow DOF is a very powerful device,I use it myself and who wouldn't if they could, but it's not the only tool in the tool box to achieve the desired effect in question in cinematic storytelling.

September 26th, 2005, 05:47 AM	#18
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	I don't use any of that software but I wish I knew how. Here is a link to some demos of what I am talking about but with still images. Post with demos http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....69&postcount=7 Thread www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=46901

September 26th, 2005, 07:53 AM	#20
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	Ooops. I thought he was talking about After Effects and Photoshop. Oh well, those demos show how it can be done with these tools.

October 23rd, 2005, 05:28 PM	#21
Eki Halkka Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 32	Here's a video where we did all the DOF in post production, in After Effects. The video is all greenscreen, shoth with Sony HDR-FX1, and the BG's are 3D. In some shots, we used hand drawn masks for the DOF areas. http://www.poetsofthefall.com/videos/lift/

October 23rd, 2005, 11:36 PM	#23
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	you do not need green screen. use Mokey to have background and subject separated, then recomposite using the mask+blurr. with mokey you can track a full scene with 5 mouse clicks.

October 24th, 2005, 04:58 PM	#28
John McGinley Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 142	Yo Eki, I think you're following me. Anywho, you were using a HVR-Z1. The FX1 doesn't have black stretch.

October 24th, 2005, 07:19 PM	#29
Bill Porter Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ventura, California, USA Posts: 751	Isn't being Swedish and being Finnish basically the same thing? :ducking: