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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:29 AM   #1
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24p and 30p in same timeline questions when using hard drives

I'm having some problems understanding the modes and what will happen exactly on the editor.

I plan to shoot a variety of footage for documentary using Panasonic AG-DVX100a, and on the same tape I have will have some nice 24p shots using a tripod and then shoot my tracking shots (rodeo) at 30p so as to avoid strobing. Editing via Sony Vegas 6.

I know that if I capture using vegas it splits the clips based on the breaks on the tape into scenes, but will it know properly which footage is 24p and which is 30p, even if it's on the same tape, or do I need to switch tapes every time I change modes?

Same question on the Hard drive... I shot some studio footage with DV rack in two different modes, but on import of the stream to Vegas it thinks the whole thing was 30p. If I use DV Rack or external Hard drive for studio recording, there is no capture, hence no logic as to what the footage is exactly. Should I stop recording on DV rack on each take or can I let it roll even as I switch?
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 12:43 PM   #2
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The short answer is: It will "just know."

The long answer, and the more important answer, has to do with how you will render the video out. If you are using 30p, you should not render out to 24p.

The better way to do this would be to shoot your 24p, and shoot tracking in 60i. The 60i is very flexible and can be rendered out as 24p. 30p is intractable.

In short, don't use 30p at all.

DJ
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 05:38 PM   #3
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Vegas will know what's what when you capture from tape.

But, unfortunately, DJ is correct; unless you want horrible strobing and ghosting from the 30p footage, you're going to have to edit on a 60i timeline. 30p does not convert to 24p well. In 60i, you're fortunate in that in that you're not going to lose any of the 24p or 30p aesthetic, though you'll see a difference between the 24p and 30p.

Did you shoot standard 24p or 24pA? If 24p, you'll be fine in 60i. If 24pA, you may see a more pronounced stutter on a 60i timeline. It may not be that bad, but if it is, there's a workaround -- bring all the 24pA footage into a 24p timeline, and then export as 24p with 2:3 pulldown. Then, it'll play nice on a 60i timeline.

Now, if strobing is what you're trying to avoid, yes, shooting 60i will eliminate strobe -- but only until you convert to 24p. 60i footage converts well, but it will behave as though you shot 24p all along, and if the camera motion is too fast, there will be the same kind of strobing. Shooting 60i with intent to convert to 24p later means moving the camera as though you're shooting 24p.

If you're planning your shoot, you may be better off just shooting 60i. Or, you can plan your edit ahead of time and decide what kind of shots you want in 24p (interviews? Slow pans? Etc.), and what kind of shots you want in 60i (most of the rodeo action), and then plan a creative edit to differentiate the two. If you establish "rules," you can do a fine job of it and the audience will get it.

But . . .

Also keep in mind that you can still shoot it ALL in 24p if you're going to follow a subject around (like the horse/rider/whatever). If you can track an object and keep it "starionary" in frame, yes, the background will strobe, but the audience will be watching the main focus and won't notice (Hollywood does this all the time). Or, it might not even be a problem at that -- if you're tracking a fast-moving object and keep it in frame, the background will just "swish" by, and it won't strobe at all.

Or, another option when shooting 24p is to use a shutter speed of 1/24. This will virtually eliminate any strobing in 24p. It won't look nearly as much like film, but it'll be progressive, 23.976 fps, and it won't strobe.

So, think about what you really want to achieve (always think about the edit), and proceed with the best option to accomplish your artistic goal.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 10:27 PM   #4
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Wow, all good advice

Thanks guys. I think I'm going to need a little practice at 24p keeping smooth and steady. Went out and got some nice footage at 24p the other day of horses and such and farm activity.

I'll tell ya though, I'm noticing some heavy artifacts in the darks and it's tough to find a balance between the strobing and the blur. It's hard to imagine that this is similar to shooting on film. It seems like the AG can create some really sloppy images in 24p unless you are in a VERY well lit area.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 10:31 PM   #5
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Well, certainly, film is just better than a 1/3" CCD video camera, no question. Much better dynamic range and light handling. And the DVX works best with lots of light.

But 24 fps film, in terms of strobing and motion characteristics, behaves EXACTLY like the DVX does.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 10:51 PM   #6
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in addition to above..

Oh, and David, those filters of yours work in Vegas 6?
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 10:53 PM   #7
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Yes indeedy.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 07:22 AM   #8
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Render quality

David,

I'm still having problems with the footage on render. It seems no matter how I render, the output quality is never as good as the source. I can plug the camera directly to my 24" TV and see that the footage looks great in "raw" form. I preview from Vegas to the same monitor from Vegas and the preview set at the highest quality looks great too.

On Render, with any option, I'm seeing a lot of strobing, blured edges and lack of detail in the darks that do not exist in the source footage on the tape (when previewed on identical 24" CRT Televisions). My project is set to 24p and I tried each render option under AVI and MPEG with the same result, although MPEG was definately better.

I'm doing the playback in XP via Media Player, even tried quicktime and Nero and same horrible looking render, although quicktime seemed to provide better playback of the AVI files.

When shooting 24pa and 24p, what is the best way to render for playback on PC?
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Old May 11th, 2006, 01:37 PM   #9
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Tell me exactly what your render settings are.

The 24p DV template options under AVI should give you excellent results.
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