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The TOTEM Poll: Totally Off Topic, Everything Media
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Old March 5th, 2003, 12:45 PM   #1
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T-Shirt and "Public" mall - What does it mean?

No doubt you've all seen the story in the news about the guy arrested in the mall. He was asked to remove his "Give peace a chance" t-shirt, or leave the mall. When he refused to remove it, he was arrested for tresspassing.

Regardless of your political leanings re: the war, this case will go straight to the issues discussed on this board regarding "free speech" on a "private" property such as a mall. There have been many postings asking how to go about filming in malls. The issue of how "public" and "private" a mall are will be the point in this case.

It will be interesting to see how it moves forward.
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Old March 5th, 2003, 03:19 PM   #2
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I shot a scene in a mall food court about two years ago. I had to get a release from the Manager of the mall, and a release of any people that were in the shot. I wasn't allowed to show the names of any stores, or defame any of them either. Also, they wanted me to have liability insurance.

As far as the news people go... as far as I know they don't get any ones permission.

As for the guy being kicked out of the mall goes, I think thats the stupidest thing I've heard.

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Old March 5th, 2003, 03:39 PM   #3
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It is only beginning. The greatest threat to our liberties isn't overseas, it is right here. What was the quote from Franklin -"Those who trade liberty for security deserve neither."
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Old March 5th, 2003, 04:08 PM   #4
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Here's one of the many reports of the incident from Reuters via Yahoo. Seems the senior fellow is a lawyer for the NY state's judicial review commission. (Here's a funny link to some pics of wackos waiting for that mall's Apple store to open last October.)

It really baffles me. The US population is theoretically the most highly educated that its ever been. Every urban area today is multi-ethnic. Yet we seem to have so little tolerance for each other or thoughts outside our personal system of beliefs. Growing up in the late 60's and 70's I would have thought that we would have a much more thoughtful and tolerant society today. If anything, it seems more intolerant than ever.
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Old March 5th, 2003, 04:31 PM   #5
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This just goes to show what a fantastic job of brainwashing that our government and media have managed to carry out. Here in Illinois a local grocery chain removed all French products from its shelves because the French government won't go along with starting a war. A Maine manufacturer has ceased all orders to his German supplier for the same reasons.

Unfortunately, all this terrorism threat is probably going to cause is the loss of additional civil liberties for us.

Furthermore, I think that some of the things that you can shoot video on now will be prohibited in the future. I can easily see them making the point that the video could be used for planning a terrorist attack.
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Old March 5th, 2003, 05:17 PM   #6
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I'm not a fan of stamping on free speech but I do have to say that the two people who were the subject of this recent incident were part of a much larger group who had made noise and were kicked out of the mall previously.
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Old March 5th, 2003, 05:21 PM   #7
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Yes, I suspect there's more to this story. Malls are sensitive to disturbances and it's hard for me to believe that this was simply a matter of an objectionable t-shirt.
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Old March 5th, 2003, 05:32 PM   #8
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Here's a more indepth article than Reuters. It doesn't say if they were part of the "two dozen" there previously. But I think if the first incident never happened it wouldn't have gone this far. Obviously the lawyer was trying to make a statement with this. Whether that was his intentions of the shirt in the first place, who knows.
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Old March 5th, 2003, 07:50 PM   #9
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Malls have one objective...to make money. And activists have one objective...to get attention for their beliefs. And the media has one objective...to make you look at them rather than the competition. And lawyers have one objective...to make their client an angel and to paint the "other side" as the worst examples of humanity in history.

So with that pot-pourri of objectives...who knows what really went down that day?
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Old March 5th, 2003, 08:12 PM   #10
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John, you have one mistake in your list of objectives.
A lawyer's objective is to make money. Acting in their client's best interest is just a means to that end. :)

Anyway, I'm in favor of freedom of speech, but the bottom line is that whoever owns the mall can do whatever they want. However, if the story is accurate, that probably wasn't the best reason to use to remove someone undesireable. I don't believe that the T-shirt was the only reason they kicked him out.
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Old March 6th, 2003, 03:34 AM   #11
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Dylan...I stand corrected...but that makes it difficult to type so I'm sitting down again...but still corrected.
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Old March 9th, 2003, 07:35 AM   #12
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How many of you have had your free speech abrogated by the government since Sept 11? I would wager to say a big fat ZERO.

I think that the whole lose of civil liberties routine is merely a red herring----
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Old March 9th, 2003, 08:03 AM   #13
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Not to defend the ambulence chasers and mindless rabble-rousers, but lots of people endure difficult careers as attorneys with loftier goals than making money. Some even fight for equal opportunity and combat the injustices of prejudice. What about the thousands of cases taken on pro bono each year? Or the thousands of lawyers who work for legal aid societies on wages often less than the blue-collar workers they represent?

Sorry if I've spoiled a good lawyer joke. Let me make amends.

A man walks into a bar with his alligator and asks the bartender, "Do you serve lawyers here?"

"Sure do," replies the bartender.

"Good," says the customer, "Give me a beer, and I'll have a lawyer for my alligator."
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Old March 9th, 2003, 09:15 AM   #14
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I find the entire article very interesting and a bit sad. It's like a throw-back to the 60s when 'the establishment' wouldn't serve anyone with long hair! However, I agree that there could be more to this story than just a t-shirt. We'll see.

My lawyer joke contribution:

An elderly man was on his deathbed, when he called his doctor, pastor and lawyer to his bedside. "Gentlemen? I want you to know that I'm going to dispell the old adage that 'you can't take it with you'. In these three envelopes is all the money I have left in the world - $90,000. There is $30,000 in each envelope. Upon my burial, I want you to drop these envelopes on my casket just before they cover me up."

The three agreed, took the envelopes and left. When the old man died, all three waited until the family and friends left the graveside and walked to the hole in the ground. The pastor said, "I feel a bit guilty about this. Our church needed a new roof, so I took $10,000 from the envelope." And he tossed the envelope on the casket in the ground.

The doctor said, "Yes, I too feel a little guilty. Our office needed new examination equipment and borrowed $20,000." He then tossed his envelope on the casket.

The lawyer looked at the two in disgust and said, "I am truly ashamed of you two", as he tossed his envelope in the hole. "Why I just gave my personal check for the full amount!"
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Old March 9th, 2003, 09:55 AM   #15
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The more I read about the story, the more I am amazed by how stupid the mall has been. The two guys, who happened to be lawyers, bought the shirts at a custom T-shirt place in the mall (!) There was an anti-war demonstration in the mall last December, but, at least according to news reports, the two guys who bought the shirts were not involved.

The mall had no problem with them buying the shirts, but threw them out when they put them on. I fully agree that as managers of private property, the mall management has every right to exclude those who are disruptive or interfere with shopping. That being said, being merely stupid is not acceptable.

Of course, following the arrests there was a large demonstration in the mall with a hundred or so folks getting anti-war shirts made in the mall t-shirt shop. The mall also asked that all charges be dropped against the two guys it arrested.
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