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Old April 3rd, 2008, 02:36 AM   #1
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Cartoni Focus--pan rebound

OK, so everyone that gave a rip knew about the pan rebound issue, right?

I read quite a few posts discussing the Focus, many used descriptions like "smooth and tight" but no one mentioned the rebounding.

so I'll get it going. It rebounds, unless you drop the drag down to around -0, but then, there's no 'smooth' anymore.

I've only had this thing a couple hours, so maybe some owners could comment on whether the pan rebound disappears over time, or there's an adjustment to get around it, or possibly suggest another head that would work with my Miller Solo VJ (100mm bowl) sticks.

The rig is weighs 5.5 pounds (Sony V1 with stuff).
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 04:22 AM   #2
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Er, Scott............

Hmm, Miller Solo VJ sticks huh?

Single tube, right?

No spreader, right?

You think they ain't going to wind up, right?

Guess what, right? Wrong!

They'll wind up like a 30 cent watch and unwind just as viciously.

Should have known, my friend, you don't get nothing for nothing.

Put an HD camera on 'em and you're cactus.

Whoops!


CS

PS. Even Miller will say, if asked, they are not designed, nor suited, to HD shooting. I think your head has a temporary stay of execution.

Last edited by Chris Soucy; April 3rd, 2008 at 04:50 AM. Reason: +
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 11:38 AM   #3
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So you're thinking the elasticity is in the legs not the head? Hmmm, maybe.

If so, I'd expect more rebound when the legs are fully extended (to 1870 mm (73.6 in), three sections), and dramatically less when fully retracted (220 mm (8.7 in) three tubes collapsed together).

Giving this a try, I observe no difference whether the legs are extended or retracted.

The Miller website does not specifically address the use of HD cameras on the Solo VJ, but they do say "Supports all full size ENG/EFP camcorders"; and also " Miller SOLO ENG has changed how cameraman view telescopic tripods by achieving incredibly high torsional rigidity in the lightest 100mm Carbon fibre/magnesium design."

The design speaks for itself. Why a 100mm bowl on a lightweight rig? Here's what they say about the design capacity of their bowls: "BOWL DIAMETER : Smaller suits lighter payloads: 75mm-10kg (22lb), 100mm-25kg (55lb).

Miller designed this tripod to handle up to 25kg of payload. My fully loaded V1U weighs in at 10% of that.

The rebound's gotta be coming from the head, not the sticks.

??
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 11:56 AM   #4
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Hi Scott...............

I actually talked to one of the senior managers at Miller (in Australia) on this very subject when I was looking for a new set of sticks.

Did he say outright: "Do not put a HD camera on the Solo's"? Nope.

When asked a specific question: "Would you advise putting a HD camera on a set of Solo's" the answer was................"No".

Granted, there may well be an issue with your Cartoni, you will only really know if you can bolt it to a block of concrete or something similar, which most definately cannot move.

It's not a unit I am at all familiar with, so really cannot comment on - never even seen one. It is possible it is either faulty or has the same issues as the cheap Manfrotto heads. All conjecture, which does not help you at all.

The Solo's were a serious contender when I was looking, but I was already having such serious problems with "wind up" on my existing sticks I wasn't prepared to even put them in the final line up after my conversation with the guy from Miller.

Hope you can solve your issues without too much hassle.


CS
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 12:27 PM   #5
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Why did you title the thread Cartoni focus rebound when it is the legs that are the problem not the head.

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Old April 3rd, 2008, 12:49 PM   #6
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Alan,
take a moment to read my second post and you'll see why my observations point toward the head and not the sticks.

If you have a Focus, I'd like to hear your experiences.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 01:09 PM   #7
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For what it's worth, I shot a short with an Aaton XTRProd + zoom and O'Connor 1030 mounted on my Solo VJ sticks and it was DEAD solid.
With my Cartoni Laser and HVX200 (and similar cameras), there is not quite as much stability but I still don't really notice wind up.

I remember trying the Focus on a different tripod and experienced a lot of slop and stickiness in the drag.
IMO, it's the head and not the sticks. The Solo's stability will increase exponentially with more weight, and I would feel comfortable flying a broadcast HD rig on it along with a good head.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 01:18 PM   #8
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Hi Scott......

There is a way to determine just who the culprit is, if you have the patience for it.

Sounds daft I know, but sure does work.

Get a 2 lb bag of sugar (or anything else the same weight you can tie/ attach a length of string to).

Set camera on head (make sure tripod is properly set up and head levelled).

Attach one end of string to pan bar midway on the rubber grip.

Lock all controls (pan, tit) on the head with the camera pointing level.

Loop string over anything close (needs to be smooth) so that "the weight" can hang vertically and string is at right angles horizontally to the pan bar (trying to pull the head into a pan).

Run camera in HD mode.

Lift weight.

Gradually lower till weight is hanging in free air.

Lift again.

Lower.

View footage on HD screen.

If you can see the picture moving from side to side, it's the legs.

If it doesn't, it's the head.

Okay, it sounds like I'm jerking you around, but I'm serious, that's how it's done.

The force required to pan a decent head with moderate to serious drag set is about 2 lbs - 4 lbs (variable, also depends on pan speed). That is all it takes to wind up a misbehaving set of sticks with an HD cam on board to "Yuck" level.

With what that gear cost you, a cheap enough test, I think you'll agree.

I'll be interested in the outcome.


CS

BTW. For best results zoom lens in max on a suitably complex target - a sheet of newspaper works pretty good. This test performed on a set of Manfrotto 520 sticks was so mortifying, I never used them again!

Last edited by Chris Soucy; April 3rd, 2008 at 01:32 PM. Reason: +
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 02:22 PM   #9
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So you're saying under a constant force of 2-4 pounds, if I see stuttering in the movement (right to leftish) that's due to the tripod winding up, releasing, winding, releasing?

I already broke down the rig, but if I have time tonight, I'll try it, and compare to the lightweight Bogen rig just for grins.

If I can do it, I'll try both max and min fluid settings.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 02:39 PM   #10
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Hi......

If you think about it, with the head controls locked and a constant force applied to the pan bar, then released again etc etc, any movement can only be the legs winding up or the receiver warping, or both, there's nothing else that can move.

With the Manfrotto 520's it was both.

Scary.


CS
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 06:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Brickert View Post
Cartoni Focus--pan rebound
I use my Focus at 650mm (35mm equiv) on an XH A1 and don't get any rebound on the pans (or tilts). I'm using a hi-hat bolted to the building.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 06:20 PM   #12
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Ah...........

The old "bolted to a block of concrete trick, eh 99".

Does it every time.


CS
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