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Old July 24th, 2009, 06:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Powers View Post
That particular Cartoni is likely to twist like a hula hoop when you pan with a heavy camera and moderate drag. It will then kick back when you stop the pan. Why? It has the double curse of three sections - and single tubes on two of them. The bottom tube looks pretty skinny. For an aluminum tripod, see if you can get two tubes per section within your budget. A two section tripod is more stable than a three section tripod, but won't go as low.

The Sachtler is carbon fiber. Even though it has two tubes on two sections and the tubes are larger, it's lighter than the Cartoni. Shop for carbon fiber only if it light weight is important to you. If you're only using it within a couple hundred feet from your car, go with aluminum, but get double tubes if at all possible.

I've got this, and it's quite stout, but it weighs more than twice the Sachtler's weight, has half the load rating, and doesn't go nearly as low: Manfrotto by Bogen Imaging | 350MVB Professional Tripod | 350MVB
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Old July 24th, 2009, 07:14 PM   #17
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Whoa, there................

I simply cannot let this pass:

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Originally Posted by Stefan Immler View Post
Keep in mind: tripods only use spreaders if they are not rigid enough. It is an add-on to compensate for lack of stability. A spreader is not a feature -- it is a bug-fix.
The above statement is absolutely incorrect and shows an almost total misunderstanding of the physics involved in tripod design and the engineering required to overcome what are inherant shortcomings in any three legged device (that you want to be able to carry without a fork lift truck).

The most obvious reason for having a spreader is to stop the legs from doing the splits in the event one or more feet cannot get a grip. Every tripod I have ever seen that is designed for a spreader will splay the legs 90 degrees to the receiver and go flat to the ground if left to their own devices.

It is possible to get around this by putting locks at the hinge points in the receiver, however, this creates it's own problems. Due to the length of the lever created by a fully extended tripod leg, the strength of the lock required is massive, to prevent it being sheared off under load, especially at high splay angles. Additionally, the slightest amount of play in such locks reveals itself as play in the hinge mechanism and the entire tripod waving about like a drunken sailor. In order to overcome this problem extraordinary machining tolerances are required, pushing the price up. Continued use of even the best machined locks will create wear, which will, ultimately, render the tripod unusable.

It is also exceedingly difficult to machine in enough lock stops to let any leg assume almost any angle, required when shooting on rough ground, thus limiting versatility.

Spreadered tripods do not suffer from these problems, the "centre to leg" section on each spreader usually being infinately variable or has dozens of teeth machined in to allow almost infinate adjustment. Interestingly, the spreader only performs this "anti splits" function as an extremely useful side show to the main event.

The standard twin tube tripod leg is designed to emulate a box girder, they just omit the sheet of steel joining the two tubes together. This gives such a leg design an extremely high resistance to warping in a lateral direction and thus extremely good rotational rigidity and low "wind up".

Where they are vulnerable, however, is to forces applied trying to push the leg inwards towards the closed position. Such a force, applied to one leg, will indeed cause the leg to deform inwards, thus shortening it, thus causing the receiver to dip down in the direction of the effected leg, thus causing the camera to buck in response (this is very visible in the footage.

Most spreader designs positively lock the centre point of all three legs together, so that a force applied to one leg is transmitted to the other two, multiplying the effective in/ out rigidity by a considerable factor, resisting a single leg warp and turning a kneed leg from a head buck event to an attempted "push the tripod off all three feet at once" event, which will be a forward/ backward move of the camera, which, if visible at all, will be minute in comparison to the head warp.

But wait - it gets better!

A locked centre spreader actually increases lateral/ rotational rigidity as well, making a spreadered tripod inherantly stronger than a head lock tripod.

So, now that we've proved that the design engineers at the best support manufacturers on the planet aren't a complete load of utter morons, I'll leave you guys to get on with the show.


CS

Last edited by Chris Soucy; July 24th, 2009 at 08:41 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2009, 08:41 PM   #18
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I suppose I could try to become an expert on tripod design before I make my choice or just play it safe and go with one of these:

Sachtler | DV-12SB ENG Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1263 | B&H

or

Sachtler | DV-12SB SL Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1265 | B&H
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Old July 24th, 2009, 10:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Stefan Immler View Post
Keep in mind: tripods only use spreaders if they are not rigid enough. It is an add-on to compensate for lack of stability. A spreader is not a feature -- it is a bug-fix. The Gitzos don't need a spreader.
I don't know if I can agree with this statement either.

First of all a spreader is a handy thing for quick setup and breakdown.

Second of all, a tripod can never be too rigid. Every tripod, and I mean every one of them flex to a certain extent. Anything that can be done to lower the flex is welcome especially if it adds little weight and expense.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 08:42 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst View Post
The Sachtler is carbon fiber. Even though it has two tubes on two sections and the tubes are larger, it's lighter than the Cartoni. Shop for carbon fiber only if it light weight is important to you. If you're only using it within a couple hundred feet from your car, go with aluminum, but get double tubes if at all possible.
You save about 500grams going for carbon legs, but in my opinion the CF ones are a tad stiffer then the alu ones. Used both Alu and CF legs with video18plus head recently.

If budget allows for either Sachtler or Vinten, I would not even consider Cartoni.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 11:17 PM   #21
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Sachtler Speed-lock verses standard legs

Looks like I'm going with either:

Sachtler | DV-12SB ENG Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1263 | B&H

or

Sachtler | DV-12SB SL Carbon Fiber Tripod System | 1265 | B&H

For the Sachtler owners: Are there are downsides with the speed-lock legs verses the non speed-lock legs? Other than the extra $700 is there any reason not to go with speed-lock legs?
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Old July 26th, 2009, 03:56 AM   #22
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If you don't mind 10 or 20 seconds more "fiddle time" when you are setting up, then save that $700!

However, if money is no object, and/or very set-up time is important, then the Speedlocks are brilliant, the fast set-up is just so neat, and avoids you having to scramble around on the ground extending the second stage. Undo the three waist-height catches, lift the head to the desired height, the legs extend by themselves, then re-do the three catches, all without bending over too far.

No downside to the Speedlocks other than the extra $$$.

I just love 'em.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 04:00 AM   #23
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Answer is simple.
Miller.


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Old August 7th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #24
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quick question

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Originally Posted by Mike Beckett View Post
If you don't mind 10 or 20 seconds more "fiddle time" when you are setting up, then save that $700!

However, if money is no object, and/or very set-up time is important, then the Speedlocks are brilliant, the fast set-up is just so neat, and avoids you having to scramble around on the ground extending the second stage. Undo the three waist-height catches, lift the head to the desired height, the legs extend by themselves, then re-do the three catches, all without bending over too far.

No downside to the Speedlocks other than the extra $$$.

I just love 'em.
With the speed lock can I adjust both stages independant of each other or is the the design such that when I extend or retract they both move the same amount? I just want to make sure I'm not losing anything by being unable to independantly set each stage of extension like I can with the non-speed lock 2 stage Sachtlers. IE I may wish to increase stability by minimizing the amount of the second stage extension due to the fact that it is a single tube.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 03:26 PM   #25
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Kyle,

It's jind of hard to explain (at least for me!). On my Sachtler Speedlock 75 CF legs, the top stage is two-tube and the lower two are both single tube, obviously with the botom stage smaller than the middle stage.

You can see in the photo here: Sachtler | 4588 Speed Lock 75 CF Tripod w/ 75mm Bowl | 4588

The legs just fall to the required height when you undo the levers. With the lever undone, you can manually slide the stages around if you wish, quite easily. Normally (for me, anyway) the middle stage extends first, i.e. the bigger tubes, and the small final stage extends last, but that could just be fluke!
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Old August 7th, 2009, 04:18 PM   #26
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Kyle,

It's jind of hard to explain (at least for me!). On my Sachtler Speedlock 75 CF legs, the top stage is two-tube and the lower two are both single tube, obviously with the botom stage smaller than the middle stage.

You can see in the photo here: Sachtler | 4588 Speed Lock 75 CF Tripod w/ 75mm Bowl | 4588

The legs just fall to the required height when you undo the levers. With the lever undone, you can manually slide the stages around if you wish, quite easily. Normally (for me, anyway) the middle stage extends first, i.e. the bigger tubes, and the small final stage extends last, but that could just be fluke!


Thanks Mike,

so you are saying that if I wanted to extend the first stage and not the second stage or vice versa I could do that?
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Old August 7th, 2009, 04:32 PM   #27
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Thanks Mike,

so you are saying that if I wanted to extend the first stage and not the second stage or vice versa I could do that?
Exactly. It might take a very small amount of manual sliding if you are super fussy about which stage you want, but nothing that would cause any real trouble. WIth the speedlock clamps it's still a work of seconds.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 05:03 PM   #28
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Exactly. It might take a very small amount of manual sliding if you are super fussy about which stage you want, but nothing that would cause any real trouble. WIth the speedlock clamps it's still a work of seconds.
Thanks Mike,

Looks like I'm gonna go with speedlocks then.
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