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Old November 5th, 2011, 06:35 PM   #16
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Re: Twist at tripod head

I'll stay tuned for the "non destruct" rig test and we'll take it from there.

As an interim matter, just because I'm shooting in the dark in many respects, can I make a suggestion?

I'll take that as a yes.

Fire an e-mail to Peter.Harman@VitecGroup.com .

He's the product manager for Vinten and he can, if you are so minded, arrange a (free) test drive of a Vision Blue system.

This is not because it's necessarily the answer to all your problems, but it will give you an idea what a Pro rig can do and it will be a benchmark for how your rig will behave on same.

Now, before anyone pipes up and asks why I've not included Barbara at Sachtler in this, I don't think the Ace has a snowballs chance in Hell of handling the torque of that rig, and the "big boys" at Sachtler will blow the entire States budget, let alone Richards.

You WILL require a Manfrotto 520 Ball (double check, I can never remember which one is which) fitting as the VB head has a non detachable 75 mm ball.

Sounds like a plan to me.


CS

Last edited by Chris Soucy; November 5th, 2011 at 07:12 PM.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 09:42 PM   #17
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Re: Twist at tripod head

I know where you are coming from with the wide view tilt issue. With ground-to-air shot of aircraft, the issue is aircraft are "free range" and a lead-lag device in the tilt axis would be difficult as the wide-view would likely be lost on overheads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4rC5dVPq1s

I also use the wide-view as a means of sighting which cannot work if the lead-lag movement is too large . I also have a different setup in that whilst the cameras are identical, the lens systems are not. Both zooms do however have a zone of overlap.


http://exposureroom.com/members/DARA...9cd2678f8ecfe/


I have also simply been too lazy to address it. My aviation vision has not been and is unlikely to be an earner because the events are simply not of national interest and too infrequent here in the far west.

A sports ground however is a more confined movement. I think the quickest and easiest mod for you would be to make a heavy mass balance, coarsely adjustable in the tilt plane (fine adjustments using the head tilt), attach it to your wide-view head and leave the clamp mount backed off so the mount is free to pivot in the tilt plane on the round bar.

Alternatively, just hang the mass from a spacer plate fitted between the wide-view camera base and its tripod head base and leave the tilt backed off with light drag friction. This route may stress the camera body bedcause of the fluid drag of the head.

The necessary lightness of structure where it is at its thinnest might introduce shake in the tilt axis with sudden tracking moves. With either method your wide view once trimmed should remain as you want it in the tilt axis but still lead in the pan axis when you want it to.

You would need to drill two small holes and insert splitpins and maybe also thrust washers to stop the piece from sliding off the end if you go for letting the head mount itself swing freely.

Your cogbelt and jockey pulley should be able to accommodate the amount of twist involved. If the belt tends to ride off the jockey pulley, then applying the tension to the belt with a flat pulley from the outside and allowing the pulley mount to freefloat on the tube should fix that issue.

Your mass balance might need to be ovoid in profile to reduce windage which might induce a sway in the tilt movement. If you use a mass balance directly acting on the tilt head to use its frictional dampening, windage buffet is likely to cause the long view to shake at the extreme end of the zoom.

As an alternative to a belt relay mechanism you might examine a simpler two-piece tie-rod with simple yoke and clevis-pin ends like in light sail rigging, incorporating an adjustable lost-movement slide and a turnbuckle for trimming, similar to the track-rod arrangement of large trucks and older four-wheel drive vehicle steering systems.

Servo actuator rods and ball-ends as used in large-scale remote control model aircraft and helicopters might be another direction.

The downside of a solid linkage is the limit on the range of pan movements which on some sports grounds might leave you short of the goal ends in the long view.


An alternative would be to keep mechanicals out of the mix as much as possible. A compromise might be to mount both your cameras with the wide-view camera on its own tripod head, the narrow view camera fixed on the bar, itself fixed upon on the second common tripod head with its tilt locked to preferred wide-view and the pan left free with friction. There would be limit stops on the wide-vew pan movement of the wide-view head on the bar. The tilt movement would be left free with a mass balance as described above. The narrow view camera would be on the second tripod head mounted to one end of the bar. The pan movement would be initiated with the wide-view control arm to enable noseroom in the composition during the movement.

Tilt movements of the narrow view camera would be controlled by the arm on the main tripod head supporting both cameras. The bad downside to this arrangement is two hands being required to operate both tripod handles leaving no hand free for lens controls. Initial lag would also lose the frame on subject in the narrow view camera, which is why both hands would be needed on both control arms. If the narrow view camera zoom and focus is capable of remote control via a LANC cable to a controller on one of the handles, then this arrangement could be workable.


FOOTNOTE.

By mass balance, I mean a pendant weight on a fixed arm.

Last edited by Bob Hart; November 5th, 2011 at 11:17 PM. Reason: error
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Old November 6th, 2011, 12:50 PM   #18
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Soucy View Post
He's the product manager for Vinten and he can, if you are so minded, arrange a (free) test drive of a Vision Blue system.

CS
There it is. I was wondering how long it would be till the inevitable happened.

@Richard. Why are you talking about a head? I thought you had two heads on a bar rotating with a belt and all you needed was a way to attach the bar to some bowl legs. Some of the Manfrotto balls I linked you to don't have knobs on the cup so they are quite compatible with the various legs.
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Old November 6th, 2011, 02:06 PM   #19
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Les,

I shan't comment on what I percieve to be the underlying insinuation in your post, though perhaps paying greater attention to the details in the thread may be illuminating, but I will say this:


If you know of a way of getting a Pro support system (FREE!) to Mr/ Ms Anyone's Doorstep, Anywheresville, The World, with just one e- mail, do pipe up and tell us, because the only other way I know is via Sachtler and the reason why they were not included this time is also in the thread.

It (the VB) also just happens to be a system I have, have tested exhaustively against numerous others AND measured it's performance empirically, so have an in depth knowledge of what it can and cannot do.

Google "benchmark".

Sad.


CS

Last edited by Chris Soucy; November 6th, 2011 at 02:56 PM.
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Old November 6th, 2011, 06:47 PM   #20
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Chris, since you have the VB can you tell me what the distance is from the top of the tripod to the bottom of the head? I have looked at a lot of pictures including the review you did and it looks like the gap might be as much as 1 inch or more.

Thanks
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Old November 6th, 2011, 08:08 PM   #21
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Re: Twist at tripod head

You tell me your definition of "bottom of the head" and I'll gladly measure it, but I've gotta say, the reason for the question isn't immediately apparent, though I'm sure there is a good one.

Do you mean where the half ball fixes to the head body itself?

If this is related to it's operation with a 520 Ball half ball adapter, I can send you a picture/ take that measurement if it's more pertinent, I have both 500 and 520 Ball adapters..........somewhere.

Tho', unless it's love at first sight with the VB, it probably isn't relevant, as something closer to your budget figure will probably be the ultimate weapon of choice, I simply can't pluck a Manfrotto 546B out of thin air like I can a Vinten.


CS
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Old November 6th, 2011, 08:47 PM   #22
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Yes I mean where the half ball fixes to the head. From the top of the tripod to the bottom of the head unit, that space where you see the part of the half ball extending from the tripod. I do want it on the Vinten since that is what I will be able to play with. Just want to be prepared when it comes in from Peter.

Does that make sense?
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Old November 6th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #23
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Re: Twist at tripod head

OK, sense made.

4 measurements around the join - 13 to 14 mm, average, say, 13.5 mm, my conversion thingy say's .53150 inches.

Got your mail btw, geez, what a setup!

I'll stay tuned for TNEE!


CS
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Old November 7th, 2011, 08:51 AM   #24
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Sorry but gotta ask for a few more measurements on the VB equipment. Since it is a 75mm bowl I am assuming that is the diameter of the bowl at the tripod. What is the diameter of the half-bowl where it meets the bottom of the head?

Also, since the head is kinda square what is the general width of it at the base? Or if it is not square what are the two measurements?

Lastly if you were to put a bowl over the top of the tripod head,one that would fit over the outside edges, what would that diameter be? Doesn't need to go over the top of the legs just the support part for the legs.

I cannot find any detailed measurements anywhere of the head and want to order a few items before the test rig comes in.

Thanks

Oh, and on the setup, until you take the tour you haven't seen anything. I am one of the few people I know that takes the family videos off the camera and watch them on our tv. Kids watch most of their sports games and when they have friends over the movies come in quite handy.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 02:40 PM   #25
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Right, Blood/ Caffeine meter is now steady at "barely human", both eyes are open (just) and the standby generator on my digital micrometer has been persuaded, albeit reluctantly, to splutter into some form of intermittant life, I'll take a stab at that measurement marathon you've set.

I shall begin:

Quote:
Since it is a 75mm bowl I am assuming that is the diameter of the bowl at the tripod.
You'd think that, wouldn't you? Actually, that 75 mm thing is somewhat of a moveable feast between the various manufacturers, the opening of the bowl on the VB is actually 71.4 mm.

Quote:
What is the diameter of the half-bowl where it meets the bottom of the head?

Er, I take it you mean "half ball"? Not the easiest thing to measure as the whatsits on the thingummy aren't really long enough, but will 74.6 mm keep you going?


Quote:
if it is not square what are the two measurements?

See "whatsits" comment in previous answer, but give 91.3 mm (W) X 83.0 mm (D) a shot.


Quote:
........ bowl over ... top .... head .... that.... fit..... outside edges.... would..... diameter?
Sorry about the delay, needed to boost the caffeine meter to "stupid prat" level for that one.

As far as I can tell, with no accuracy whatsoever, having upended the head and inserted the clamp bolt UP through the half bowl, centred it as carefully as possible, then measuring from the bolt centre to one of the lobes on the "tricorn" that makes up the receiver (everyone still with me?), the diameter would be...............drum roll...........66.32 mm, er, no, that's the radius, clot, try, um, 132.64 mm.

Er, however, having re - read the question in light of finding a spare grey cell that was having the day off, a more accurate measure would have to be the diagonals of the head plate itself, which, without knobbly bits, runs to 155 mm each, max.

Throw in assorted knobbly bits and adding another 10 mm to that would be prudent.


Quote:
until you take the tour you haven't seen anything

That sounds like one scary setup you've got. The street lights all over town must dim every time you fire up that server farm!

You running "pay per view" services for most of the Southern US of A, or haven't quite got there yet?


CS
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Old November 7th, 2011, 03:32 PM   #26
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Thanks for the answers as that is a big help in getting my thought process going the right way. And no comments about my thought process please.

As far as the system, the drives spin down when not in use so the electric bill does not get impacted in a big way. When you access a file then that drives spins up while watching then after a period of being idle it will spin back down. It is a fancy toy but we use it all the time so it has become a very useful toy. We have even had the teams over to watch games more than a few times. I just found a 45 drive server setup so I will start playing with that idea next, I am even surprised they got all of that in one box. No ppv yet as my movie library just hit 1800, working on becoming Netflix.

Peter is working on the demo, thanks. I will order my parts so they are here when they VB gets here and its off to the races again.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 06:18 PM   #27
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Quote:
Peter is working on the demo
Good to hear, er, read, he's obviously answering your mails, wish he'd do the same to mine once in a while (dig).

Just in case you're wondering (which I doubt you were) the reason I've not enquired about what it is you're up to with those measurements and "parts" is not down to any lack of curiosity, oh no.

I've donned my Sherlock Holmes deerstalker hat, filled my pipe with my very own mixture of mind altering substance and have decided to work it out myself, using the bread crumb trail of clues you have so kindly left me to follow.

At this point I think the "Elemetary, my dear Watson" moment may well be some considerable way down the track, though as that phrase was, in fact, never written once in all the SH stories ever published, it seems quite likely it won't get used here either.

It did, for the briefest of moments, occur to me that, what with winter coming on and all, you may be going to knit the VB a little wooly jumper in Texas Rose yellow, though the thought was quickly dismissed as irreconcilable with the aforementioned "parts".

That and the fact that from memory, the VB will work at temperatures so chilling the operator will, long before, have thought "Sod this for a game of soldiers", packed his/ her gear and made a beeline for the nearest pub with a hot fire and cold beer.

I shall continue my deliberations and keep you posted, though why I would do the latter when you know what you're doing already, makes no sense whatsoever.


CS
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Old November 7th, 2011, 11:17 PM   #28
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Yes, winter is coming on in fact we are to be near 32C tomorrow, bone chilling I would say.

Let's say I have a few ideas swirling around but remember my goal is to be able to pan and not tilt with the second camera. Parts for the experiment are less than $20 so I won't break the bank but that will cover 2 different mounts for the VB. Good thing my time is cheap because I have spent so many hours reading, searching, and studying your review of the VB I could almost recite it by memory.

I also asked Peter for detailed measurements so lets see what he comes up with. I think I have downloaded every pdf that has something to say about the VB system and there is little info there as to measurements. BTW, I think he answered my email due to the chuckles he is getting from reading this thread as he said he had been following our banter.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 12:17 AM   #29
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Re: Twist at tripod head

HMOG.................

Anyone who could recite one of my reviews from memory has definately got "The Force" with them (that, or definately due for a long stay in the local nut house, paraphrase at will).

More power to your elbow, (a phrase used in many English speaking areas of the planet, USA excluded, as they don't really speak English).

Go for it, I'm all agog as to what you're going to come up with.

As for Peter, salt of the Earth, just wish he'd answer his effing mails (translate at will, Google is no help on that one).

I have been aware (don't ask me how, I simply don't know, but I know) that Peter &/OR Barbara have been tracking this thread, so I always keep a weather eye on what is happening with that in mind, and a few chuckles along the way never does any harm.

(Hi, Peter and Babs, how you doing? The occasional mail wouldn't go amiss - you never write, you never call, what's a mother to do?).

Good luck with your creation, Richard, and tell us what you think of the VB, dying to hear that one.

More, as and when.


CS
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Old November 8th, 2011, 02:38 AM   #30
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Re: Twist at tripod head

Soucy pimping Vinten Vision Blue again.

Disgraceful!

You need to do what the BBC did here when advertising Radio Times Magazine. Small print:

"* Other listings magazines are available."
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