Inside a Bogen 501
 

I have a 501 and have had it for several years. The 501 is an OK head, but you do get what you pay for. It sticks at the beginning of a movement, especially in tilt so I have to concentrate like crazy to avoid getting a jump or jerk when starting a movement. The jump isn't as noticeable when you're at wide angle but if you've zoomed in at all, forget it.

Tripods and fluid heads are very subjective things, though. My definition of smoothness may not be the same as yours and my criteria for a smooth camera movement may be stricter than yours. Personally, I am very fanatical and a perfectionist regarding smooth camera moves so for me, the 501 was frustrating.

Fluids heads are also a lot like big screen Hi-Def TVs. You don't know what you're missing until you've experienced something better and once you have, you don't want to go back. I live in Los Angeles and have been lucky to try out very high-ends heads from Sachtler, Cartoni and OConnor with live cameras on them at trade shows. The only real way to evaluate a head is with a live camera on it. I am especially fond of OConnor heads.

The best way to describe these high-end heads is that they are effortless. You don't have to concentrate that much to make a smooth camera move. They are so smooth, so precise and so rigid that you can get a nice shot each time and every time, wide angle or zoomed in. This, of course, comes at a price because these heads are more massive than a DV head and mechanically they mare MUCH more complicated than a cheap DV head. To illustrate this, I took apart my 501 to show y'all what's inside.

The tilt platform has a series of concentric rings that fit into another set of concentric rings inside the pan assembly. These rings have a coat of sticky grease or something like that. The rings don't touch each other so it's this sticky grease that creates the drag. On the right side tilt platform there is an additional white teflon or delrin type disc. When you tighten the tilt drag knob, you are pressing this white disc to increase the friction. I didn't take apart the pan drag assembly but I assume it's identical to the tilt axis. Since the drag adjustment is actually a friction boost, I would leave all of the drag adjustment knobs all the way out. As you can see, the head is pretty simple. There are no ball bearings.

Excellent post Tim! Did the patient survive the operation? ;-)

I have a 501 and also a Miller DS5, and completely agree with you. I've also tried the more expensive heads and wish I could justify spending that much.

I think these photos and your comments about the 501 will be of interest to many people, so I'm making this thread a "sticky."

Thanks Boyd. The patient is no worst for wear :)

I probably should caution people about giving their heads a lobotomy though. Not only could it give you a migraine (ha-ha), but some heads may be charged with fluid so if you take it apart you might have a messy problem on your hands and a head that no longer works.

As for the great debate regarding whether or not a 501 is fluid head, I'd say it depends on your definition of a fluid head. The fluid drag isn't a sealed compartment that is bathed in fluid but the drag is based on viscous shearing of that sticky grease because the concentric rings do not touch each other. If the drag knobs are fully out, the only friction is in the pivots which are not supported by ball bearings. So basically, the 501 is a fluid head--just a very cheap one.

The 503 is suppose to have variable fluid drag so I'm not sure how that one is constructed.

My experience replacing viscous medium
 

I had a the Bogen Mini Fluid Head, which I initially purchased in the mid-80s. I decided to sell it on ebay, but the fluid effect had deteriorated and I had to repair it prior to sale. I read on some video forum about using a non-petroleum grease, and was able to find some in a hardware store.

The tilt interior had an interleaved concentric circle arrangement just like the 501 as shown here. The pan motion part had a simple lubricated cylinder.

There's an old joke about a cause of death entry in a death certificate:

Cause of Death: autopsy

the larger bogen head has the exact same construction internally, just bigger. I would not call thick grease "fluid". BTW don't try replacing the supplied grease with something else...uh, been there done that, didn't make a difference, and maybe made it worse in hot weather

One way of compensating for lower end heads is technique. I have both the 501 and 503. What I do is place the end of the handle against the middle of my palm. Then cup my hand without clasping the handle with my fingers. Fingers do not touch the handle. The pan or tilt. It might take a little practice.

I have the 501HDV and frictions knobs should always be loose (lock instead of increasing drag, make things less jerky) and make movements with the middle of the palm, what you described is the best way to achieve good movements with these heads.

I still have a question: Is the 503HDV a true fluid head or what? If it's not then I'll save money and get a Sachtler FSB-6 instead of upgrading to the 503.

I was very interested to see the pictures of the insides of a Bogen head. I have made a couple of fluid heads that have given good service and compare favourably with any that I have seen (and in some cases worked on) else where. My main reason for the DIY approach was that I wanted to use one of the heads underwater and so right from the start I could choose materials that would withstand sea water. The reason for developing the second head was to reduce the size and weight to a minimum.
To have any chance of success it was necessary to understand the physical principles involved in pan and tilt head design. Drag can be provided by either mechanical friction or fluid drag. An important, and in this undesirable characteristic of friction, is that it takes more force to overcome the static resistance between two surfaces, than it does to keep one surface moving relative to the other. This makes smooth stops and starts difficult to achieve. Smooth surfaces and lubrication help but take away the drag. On the other hand if you have two surfaces separated by a fluid, some of the fluid is in contact with one surface, some is in contact with the other surface and the rest of the fluid is in between. If now you move one surface relative to another the fluid layer between is subjected to shearing forces, some of the fluid is moving one way, some is moving the other and the fluid in between is static. That is to say there is a velocity gradient imposed on the fluid and this creates a drag. The amount of the drag is dependent on a number of factors. One is speed - the higher the speed the more the drag. Another is the viscosity of the fluid – the higher the viscosity the greater the drag. A third factor is the thickness of the fluid layer – for the same speed the velocity gradient becomes higher as the thickness is reduced, i.e. the thinner the layer the more the drag. Finally the dimensions of the fluid separated surfaces – if all else is equal a larger head will provide more drag because of larger diameters and areas etc.
Essentially then for smooth action fluid drag is good and mechanical friction is undesirable. Mechanical friction can be reduced by using good bearings and seals. Fluid drag can be varied by providing a means of changing the area of surfaces used, or by varying the thickness of the fluid layer. Vibrations and unsteadiness can also be transmitted by the operator and these can be reduced by providing a degree of flexibility in the pan handle. An alternative is to drag the handle with a rubber band.
Finally if you are investigating the insides of your pan and tilt head there is a simple way to tell whether it uses a fluid or a grease. If you disturb the surface of a grease e.g. by poking it – the marks remain, however with a fluid the marks disappear. I use a silicone fluid with a viscosity of 600,000 centipoise, if I jab a finger into that it leaves a slowly disappearing fingerprint. It is this ability of fluid to flow that makes fluid heads the success they are.

I took apart my 503hdv head to try to improve the friction on vertical pans, it exactly the same as the pictures posted above.

I'm thinking of upgrading my head next year, maybe the 519 head, i want to stick with manfrotto because i use a shoulder mount and a glidecam, both of which have the manfrotto adaptor so i can easily swap the camera between them all.

Does anyone know which is the best manfrotto head which uses the same plate as the 503hdv ? I believe the plate is the 501pl.

Paul.

This is an interesting thread as I have wondered for years why (even with no tension) on my 501 after it has been in a single position for awhile it requires too much force to initially tilt it again. Once you "break it loose" it works fine until it sits for awhile. Then it won't tilt easily again. It has been that way for a lot of years.

Does anyone know of a modification for it? I sometimes go into a slight pan first before I tilt, but this is no solution really. So short of a better head, is there a mod for a 501?

John

Does anyone know of the best grease to use in the 503HDV?

My patient is a little worse for wear after the autopsy (I'm not getting even resistance/drag on pans)

I'm hoping that it just needs a dose of grease.. but what is suitable?

Tony

Anthony, have a look at this. I did this "modification" the other day and it's still working a treat.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/tripod-st...d-pennies.html

Paul.

Hmm.........
 

What about a 50 - 50 mix of Silicone grease and powdered graphite?

If you can find a low shear strength silicon and combine it with the lubricating characteristics of graphite, it should work a treat.

It would have the advantage of not oozing in hot conditions as well.

I'd try it myself but there's enough on my plate as it is.


CS

anyone here know about the new 504 head?

Hi, 73003...............
 

(whatever that means).

So, what do you want to know about the 504 then?

What are you looking for, for what weight and COG camera (make and model would be nice) and what's your budget?

You'll need to be a tad more specific with your questions to get real answers here, I'm afraid.

Have another shot at it.


CS

it seems as though the poster's in this thread are claiming the build quality of the heads mentioned leave a lot to be desired. Since I've posted this though, I have discovered that the 504 is not currently available.
It doesn't seem as though anyone will be able to answer my question.

But..........
 

What was the question?

You didn't actually ask one that was answerable!

What do you want to know?


CS

Lost my original reply so here is the less eloquent replacement.

The white delrin ring and faces which compress it probably should be dry, not lubed, or if lubed at all, given a very thin coating of light grease or light machine oil. No sticky friction material should be on them. Even with light oil on the surfaces, a stiction effect may be present.

At the widest diameter and at most mechanical leverage against your efforts to initiate tilt, this will be the source of your "stuck and breaks free" or stiction problem. My understanding is that the friction damping is a fixed constant effect and not adjustable in this tripod head.

It seems that the white delrin ring and its clamping clutch faces are intended as a lock-off brake only and a partial seal against ingress of dust. My understanding is it is not intended to be used as a friction adjustment although it might appear to be effective when used that way.

With time, use, storage or shipping in aircraft where pressures change and entrained airbubbles expand and force friction material to move out, migration of this material onto the delrin ring will likely have occurred.

The outer channels of the concentrically finned area are tapered. During assembly they are probably left dry so that they accummulate friction material driven out of the inner channels during assembly and afterwards when compressed entrained airbubbles expand and push some more material out.

Try cleaning the friction material off the white delrin ring and clutch faces with a safe solvent so they are completely dry. Rake out friction material from the two outermost channels of the concentric fins and restore this material to the inner channels.

After initiall re-assembly, if there is enough friction lube still in there but there remains a notchy feel to the dampening, this may be due to entrained bubbles merging and letting a whole section run free momentarily. When they finish merging and become complete open channels separating complete bands of friction material, then the motion should settle. If the notching remains or the motion becomes almost frictionless, then more friction material may need to be added.

I could be talking out of the nether region where the light of day should not normally find itself present but I think my suggestion may help you. Please prove me correct for the sake of my tender ego.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

bought my 501 head a few month ago. Just wondering, is the head suppose to last forever or do you have to open it up and grease it like some other members here did.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

answer 1 : you take it outside, smash it to bits with big hammer as it deserves, then get a real head

answer 2 : no. its designed to never be serviced by the user

seriously, bogen / manfrotto heads are crap. try a vinten or satchler and then you'll understand, but not until then. before you cry how "expensive" they are, consider that they are very well made, they are in fact rebuildable at the factory, and will last a lifetime if not excessively abused... oh and they work great.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Been using my 501 head with WN3221 legs and 1/2 ball leveler for going on 7 years now without any problems. It is smooth enough for 95% of what I shoot.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

one more question. I keep hearing about this bowl head leveler thing. Does it come with the tripod or do I buy it separately? I have a photography tripod and it annoys the crap out of me that I have to adjust the legs to make it level.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Hi, Victor...............

Stills tripods are designed for just that and are a poor substitute for a proper video half bowl tripod.

The half bowl is built into the tripod itself, giving the receiver (the bit that attaches to the legs and head ) a totally different format to a stills tripod.

To get a flat base head like the 501 to work with a half bowl video tripod you need to attach a Manfrotto half ball adapter, either a 75mm or 100mm, depending on what size bowl is in the tripod.

Lilke this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/553993-REG/Manfrotto_520BALL_520BALL_75mm_Half_Ball.html

The larger the bowl (they go up to 150mm, which is BIG!) usually the heavier and more rigid the tripod.

The bolt protruding from the top of the adapter screws into the base of the flat bottomed head, then three retainer screws (not really visible in the photo but inside the adapter half ball when you buy it) are screwed into the bottom of the head to prevent it moving on the bolt.

The long black thing at the bottom of the adapter is called the "clamp knob" and unscrews from a long bolt protruding from the bottom of the half ball. Once it is off, the bolt can be inserted (from the top) through the hole in the bottom of the half bowl in the tripod.

The clamp knob is then screwed back onto the bolt from under the receiver.When slackened off it allows the head to be leveled completely independently of the reciever level, meaning fiddling with the legs is a thing of the past.

I'm hesitant to suggest a suitable tripod, as I would need to know the payload it is required to work with and the available budget, should you wish to upgade.

However, there is one thing that needs to be pointed out. You get what you pay for, and good (video) support gear isn't cheap.

Mark................

That 5% is the killer.

Why don't you fire a mail to both Barbara.Jaumann@VitecGroup.com and Peter.Harman@VitecGroup.com and ask for a freebie try out of one of their systems (Sachtler & Vinten respectively).

It's free and no obligation, just tell them what you're shooting with and it's "game on".

Give you a feel for how the other half shoot.

That offer is open to everyone by the way, you don't need a personal introducion from me, if you feel the need or are curious, go for it.

Just beware, if you're currently shooting with a Manfrotto or stills system, you'd better lodge your credit card in the safe deposit box and give the key to a friend, with strict instructions not to return it under any circumstances, else you WILL buy one.


CS

PS; Just so you know what a half bowl tripod reciever looks like, here's two photos of a 100mm bowl unit. One is "as is", the other has a 100mm to 75mm reducing ring fitted to allow the use of a 75mm half ball base head.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

chris do you have something against manfrotto? the only reason I use them is because they're lightweight and I like their quick release, manfrotto 577. so what tripod and head would you recommend?

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

This is what you are looking for to mount between your tripod if it is a flat top type and the 501 head Manfrotto 438 Compact Leveling Head - Ball Camera Leveler 438 It works very well and takes about 3 seconds to level up. After a year or two be sure to periodically check the lever for tightness and screw looseness.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

The 501 is fine for "locked down" shots and for camera tilts and pans if you are doing wide or medium shots. It does take some practice to get smooth moves. At full telephoto its not good enough for smooth camera movements. I have used a borrowed Vinten and Miller tripod and they are fantastic pieces of equipment. However, I shoot in hazardous terrain and there is no way I am going to invest in a $$$ tripod that I could loose down a cliff or into a river.

My Manfrotto 501 head and WN3221 legs have taken a whole lot of abuse over the years and have held up very well. They are not junk and anyone that tells you otherwise IMO is incorrect. In my book they are an excellent investment. I just hope that when mine is finally worn out I can find similar quality at a good price. Tripods/heads are a lot like cars. You can spend a little for Ford Feista or much more for a Porsche 911. They will both get you there but one with a lot more finesse than the other.

I also have another cheap tripod (Davis & Sanford) that I use to support a jib and motorized slider. It is very sturdy and has worked out well. Another great value.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

If only you told me this sooner. Now I'm having problem with the 501 getting stuck to my tripod. Some screws keep getting loose. the plastic lever fell off and I can't get it to get back in. Been cursing at it for the last few days...

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Uh, hum, er, you been living under a rock?

Which bit of "the Manfrotto 5 series is a complete load of j&nk for poor videogs to waste money on" don't you get?

I've been hammering it for the last 6 years, here, on DVinfo.

Guess coming out from under that rock occasionally and reading the threads might have been instructive, what more do you expect anyone does - visit you at home?

If you simply will not hear, and you've been here (on DVinfo), I've seen your posts, what else can anyone do?

You, and countless thousands, have been told, in no uncertain fashion, DONT GO THERE, but they do, and constantly come back here complaining that they (the products) don't do what "the manufacturer promised".

JOKE: Since when did you take a Nuclear Power Station management at their word with "we're safe?"

Rider: In Japan? Three Mile Island? Hmm.

You have been told, often, you chose to ignore it, what more can we do?

I have absolutely zero sympathy I'm afraid, it's between you and Manfrotto, good luck.

Good to see someone from Manfrotto actually 'fessed up here, now that is interesting, maybe they finally "gottit", but I won't hold my breath.


CS

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

My 501HDV is great!

.....for static, locked off shots.

....and when I won't be more than 2 feet away from it in case the whole shebang collapses.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

I actually bought it before I got on this forum Chris... I'm just a student, but the first chance I get, I'll upgrade to something much better.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

This should satisfy everyone
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/822105-REG/Sachtler_1002_Ace_M_Fluid_Head.html

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

I finally bought another head so now I want to take apart the 501 and change the grease. I bought Dow Corning Silicone High Vacuum Grease.

Dow Corning Silicone High Vacuum Grease | eBay

Saw a post where someone used it and it worked very well on the 501 head. Said he used Lacquer Thinner to clean it first. That is where my question lies.

The posts on this subject say clean it with a "suitable solvent" or just "clean it first".

Does anyone think lacquer thinner is best or is there another solvent that you think would be better?

Thanks,

John

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Rocol Kilopoise. Designed for the job.

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Thanks for the reply Alister. I don't know of anywhere to buy that grease in the states, but I think I would like to try the Dow Corning High Vacuum Grease I bought.

It's just the solvent I am not sure about. I plan to use Lacquer Thinner unless someone knows of a better solvent. Any ideas?

Thanks,

John

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

That is what I used when I overhauled my Manfrotto 116 head a while back . That head uses a very similar arrangement to the 501 ; I also have the smaller 136 head which only has a single central tilt disc with fluid friction surfaces on each side . The Kilopoise fluid worked well in each of them .

I was looking at some of the newer Manfrotto heads recently and they now feel more like 'proper' fluid heads , with very free near frictionless movement when the drag is dialled to zero ; the adjustments work in 'clicks' much like the Sachtler heads I've used but can't afford myself . I'd like to get a better head ( and something lighter than the 116 ) to use on my Manfrotto 351 legs , and was considering a 504 after the brief play I had with one at the trade show , and bearing in mind they can be had for around £250-£280 these days .

Aren't Vintens and Bogens just badge engineered Manfrottos anyway ? It looks that way to me at least ?

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Er, no.

Vinten, Sachtler, OConnor, Bogen/ Manfrotto and Gitzo (to name just some) are all separate camera support companies within the Vitec Group.

Bogen & Manfrotto are exactly the same company - Bogen USA as was, Manfrotto rest of world.

As such, there is a fair bit of mix 'n match of components and sub assemblies between them. A case in point is the Manfrotto 501PL QR plate which has the same operational characteristics and dimensions as the Sachtler FSB QR plate (not Touch and Go).

Back in the dark ages of Standard Definition, Vinten took the bare bones of a Manfrotto 501/ 503 (don't quote me) head, re-engineered it quite substantially and sold it with a set of Manfrotto 520 sticks as the rock bottom of their camera support range, under the ProTouch banner.

It bore all the hallmarks of a Vinten just like I bear a striking resemblance to Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer (not!).

Like many cheap support systems it fell victim to the mass extinction caused by High Definition.

If you're thinking of spending your hard earned on a Manfrotto 504HD, you may wish to have a peruse of my review here: Review: Manfrotto 504HD/ 546GBK Video Support System

If you check the Articles section here on DVinfo you'll also (eventually) find my reviews of the Vinten Vision blue and the Libec RS250 for comparison.


CS

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Hi Chris ,

the only two Vinten tripods I have personal experience of are one Pro Touch 5 we have at work , and , at a previous employer , we had larger Vinten tripods on which the heads were clones of the Manfrotto 116 .

Thanks for the pointers to the reviews , I will have a read .

while I have used a few Sachtlers , and recognise them to be superior in every way to the Manfrottos I have used up to now , they do cost a lot more .

While I used to have larger cameras ( Sony DXC-M3A , JVC GY-DV500 ) , for which my Manfrotto 116/350 combo was fine , these days I shoot with a Sony V1e ( mainly just for family stuff and the odd 'homer' ; I just do the odd paying job every now and again to fund new gear for my hobby ) , but want something capable of supporting a slightly bigger camera in case I upgrade to something like a Z7 later on . I feel the 350 legs I have are fine , but the 116 head is too big and heavy for what I am doing now , and things have moved on in the 20 odd years I have had it . All the same , I can't justify a grand or more for some of the better heads , but wouldn't mind spending the £250 or so the 504 costs as long as I will see a decent improvement over what I already have . While I played with a couple of the newer red & black Manfrottos at a trade show a few months back , I'm not sure which ones they were , but they did feel more like 'proper' fluid heads than Manfrottos of old .

Anyway , thanks again and I'll go read your reviews now .

Kind regards ,

Derek .

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Having read the various reviews with interest , and also some of the manufacturers websites , I reckon that if going with Manfrotto I might as well save some money and go for the cheaper MN502 rather than the 504 ; the 502 will still support my current camera and any other I am likely to get , as well as being a bit lighter to tote around . I was put off this range of heads by the pictures showing how the plate can fall down the gap in the top , and also the mention of warping .

If I wanted to spend a bit more , then ether the Vinten Vision Blue or the Sachtler FSB4 would be the two contenders ( I suspect I'd lean towards the Sachtler , but would need to think further about it/try them out ) . The £500 or so each of these would cost would be about my upper limit .

I was also looking at various secondhand lists and saw a Manfrotto 505 going for a reasonable price - this one looks like a clone of the Vinten Pro 130 head ( hence my earlier comment - the Vision Blue also looks like it shares somewhat with some of the Manfrotto heads ) and at the asking price of £180 might be a good buy . I could also get a 501 head for a mere £69 , which looks very similar to the head on the Pro Touch 5 at work - to be fair it is nothing fantastic .

Decisions , decisions .

Edit - I think I ought to start a fresh thread rather than hijack this one :)

Re: Inside a Bogen 501
 

Just thought I would follow up on this. Two months ago I finally got around to this and I would like to inform you that it works perfectly. Disassembled the 501. Cleaned off most of the grease with acetone. Packed the rings with Dow Corning High Vacuum Grease (bought it on eBay) much like one would hand pack an automotive wheel bearing.

No more "stiction" after the tripod has been sitting in a fixed position when I try to tilt. It is smooth. I might add that given the lack of a counter balance, it is important that you manually balance the position of the camera so that tilting up or down requires the SAME effort. I use a PL-Long plate so there is a lot of distance to work with. If I am in the balcony area of a theater and I am balancing with the camera pointing down it is slid pretty far back to equalize the tilting effort. That makes a big difference in terms of the "stiction" issue. I have never had a "stiction" issue with panning, only with tilting.

Hope that helps for anyone who still has the original 501.