Manfrotto 501 Problems - It has a mind of its own...
 

My 501 head has been doing something strange and I cannot fix it.

Whenever I tilt the camera, at the end of my movement, the tripod moves back a few degrees - enough to clearly notice it.

So say I tilt up 45 degrees and stop and let go, it points back down a few degrees.

And it's REALLY ANNOYING ME!!

I have fiddled with all the knobs, loosened the resistance, tightened the resistance, but cannot stop it.

Has anyone else had this happen? And what did you do to fix it?

Thanks a million,
-- John.

John, do you have the image stabilization engaged on your camera? This is sometimes the culprit.
The optical stabilizer will compensate for when a pan or tilt ends and move back slightly. Just turn it off and see if that solves the problem. Hope this helps.

-Chris

That's interesting - yes I did. You mean it isn't actually the tripod that is moving, just the Image Stabilization 'countering' the movement?


EDIT: Well done! That's exactly the trouble. I went back and turnd it off and everything's fine. I don't understand how that can happen.

That's great news John! Nothing better than a cheap fix.

-Chris

It might cause the same problems for me. But I still have the feeling that the Bogen 503 head which I am using simply isn't the right one for the Canon XL-H1. It feels front-heavy and is hard to move smoothly.

To be sure: if I want fluid motion panning/tracking do I go to the + or - side of the fluid drag and do I lock both vertical and horizontal movement tightly or loosely? I am really not sure which way works best.

Your right, the 503 is marginal at best for a camera of that price level. You will need to move the camera back as far as possible to get it balanced. Do this by trial and error testing. The front heavyness is not a fault of the tripod head, it is a matter of the camera being very front heavy with a heavy lens.

To get the best or smoothest movement you do not want the lock down knob on at all on the direction you intend to move. Then, you want the friction control knob the loosest you can get and not have the camera move on its own. This will keep the head from inducing twist or torque into the tripod.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I will have a look at that. I am also using the Canon quick release plate, which is way bigger then the 503 head. Maybe that also causes some of the problems I am having. The Canon plate is like 2 times the size of the 503 plate and I screw them on top of each other. But like I said, I am interested to find out which tripod (or head) works better with the XL-H1. I paid so much for the camera and I do not want a tripod that does not match. I already had the tripod and therefore decided to try it out first.

Yup, the Canon adapter actually makes it harder to balance it out. It causes the camera to be mounted way too far forward. I thought I had it on backwards at first, but checked again with the instructions and it was right. I mounted the Bogen plate so far forward on the adapter that it is not in any holes, just used two screws to make sure it did not turn. I'll attach the pictures. In the locaton I have it now, it is balanced out.

Nows if you put a lot of stuff on the back of the camera, like in a studio situation, it would not be nearly so bad.

Good luck--Mike

Ok thansk for the pictures. I will try it out but I think I will be selling the tripod. I have a buyer for a good price and I am also not satisfied with the legs. Your fingers get stuck and they just do not feel that sturdy. I read a review of the Libec LS-38 which sounds very appealing to me. The balancing system on the 503 does not work so the lack of one on the LS-38 is not a problem. Nigel Cooper's review is very clear and he definately knows what he is talking about.

But I also consider the 519 head or the Libec LS-60 (1100 EURO compared to 600 EURO for the LS-38). Will the Canon plate cause the same problems on the Libec tripod (related to 75mm bowl maybe?).

NO the plate wont cause the problem on the libec. I use the LS-38 model.

Mark, are you using it with the Canon XL-H1? The camera is front-heavy so the tripod must be able to cope with that. Also, what exactly does a balancing system do and why will I or will I not miss it (purposes for it?). Thanks.

How is the forward weight bias of the XLH1 counteracted by the Libec? If I'm not mistaken, I believe both use about 5 lb counter balance springs.

Thanks--Mike

Mike, you can slide the plate back and forth to balance the camera. I believe it goes 44mm in each direction. The LS-38 has this feature, I think the smaller version (22 ?) doesn't have this feature. I specifically bought the 38 for this very reason.

The bogans slide forward and back also. Do you have an XL camera, and understand how bad the front weight bias is? It is really bad if you have not used one.

Thanks----Mike

deleted by me!

MIke, yes I do and the front weight bias is bad but it's ok on my libec. Then again with and external lcd monitor on top it only makes it worse. I have found it to work better with the libec 38 compared to the 501. I usually have a wireless receiver attached to the back of the camera and that helps out a lot with the balance.

Thanks Mark,

But we were talking about the 503 not the 501 on Floris's stuff. How specifically does your Libec make it less of a problem? I am interested in the head.

Thanks in advance----Mike

Mike , sorry I typed in the wrong number, I meant the 503. As far as the head on the libec, I do have to move the plate, camera towards the back of the head to get the proper balance, but like I said with the weight, a bigger battery and a wireless receiver on the back helps it balance better. Even with just the camera I find the balance is better, and the camera doesn't lean forward despite the weight of the lens. My guess is the head on the ls 38 is heavier than the 503 and can hold up to an 18 lb camera, so it balances the xl series cameras better then the 503. I'm not sure of the weight range for the 503, but that could be the difference.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, if that is what I'm doing, but it is not the weight of the head that determines it balance point, it is the center of gravity of the camera and where it is placed on the head. Do you have a picture of yours I could see sometime?

Thanks Mark.

Mike

Mike, I'll try and send you a picture, extremely busy the next 2 weeks with Daytona and Spring training. I'll try and get you 1 after that. Thanks.

Thanks Mark!

Anyway, if both the 503 and the LS-38 are having trouble balancing the XL-H1... what are options do I have. Do the Bogen 516 and/or 519 perform better? What about the Libec LS-55? Or other options that end up around $1200?

FLoris,

It is not a head problem, it is a camera problem, and going to a bigger head will not help. On any head you buy the camera's center of gravity should be at approximately the center of the head.

I accomplished this by moving the camera way back. You can also do it by adding weight to the rear of the camera. You can do that by mounting another battery system like Anton Bauer or the Canon double charger system. You could add a FireStore FS-4 like I have and that would balance it out pretty well. Or I sometimes have a couple of wireless units, and that helps a little.

My point is, that going to a bigger or heavier head will do no good on the balance, and may really hurt you on the tilt. Bigger heavier heads have bigger and more powerful counter balance springs. If you go to a big heavy head and try to do tilts, you will be fighting the springs and not able to do tilts easily at all. As soon as you tilt down for example, the camera is fighting to tilt it back up!

Your best bet is to put some weight on the back of the camera, anything to aid in its balance. Many people do that even when using it on their shoulder, to make it more comfortable to hold. It is easy to support the weight on your shoulder if you are not having to hold up as much weight with your arms.

Here is how to check your balance if you want to:

1. Mount your camera on your tripod.

2. Then unlock the tilt.

3. Reduce the tilt resistance to almost nothing or nothing at all. (But before you take all of the tilt resistance off) make sure you are holding the lever for the head, or the camera will tilt either forward or back right away, because it has no resistance and chance are you will not have the camera on center.

4. Now tilt the camera forward to where it wants to fall forward on its own. Note that forward angle and repeat the process tilting the camera back. Shift the camera position forward or back to make small corrections at a time. Repeat the process until the camera falls forward or back from about the same angle of tilt. That will mean that the camera is centered, weight wise, on the tripod. Remember, you are not centering the camera physically, or by how it looks. You are going by the weight distribution of the camera and accessories.

Note where your camera is positioned, when balanced, and you can put it back onto the tripod each time at about the same location and be correct. When you do tilts then, with some tilt resistance of course, it will feel very smooth and will will not even notice that the springs in the 503 are helping you out.

Note that you need to have the viewfinder and all other accessories in the position that they will be most of the time. I.e. viewfinder open or closed, head handle up or down or even on, camera mic on it or off of it.

The physical center of gravity of my XLH1 in its normal configuraton is about at the location that the viewfinder cord plugs in. However, when mounted on the tripod that is not the center because of the weight of the heads handle, my Varizoom Lanc controler, and the Canon adaptor plate. All of those items are on the rear side of the head and counterbalance the camera somewhat.

If at all possible, avoid adding weight to the top of the camera, as in using a top mounted monitor. I have one, but don't use it on top anymore for that reason. They drastically change the center of gravety as you tilt forward or back, because of the height of the weight they add.

Sorry this is so long, but I did not want you to think that a bigger heavier head will cure your problems, as it won't.

Mike

P.S.: I am not saying that you can't change to a head that is more smooth than the 503, of course you can and the heads you mentioned that cost much more will do pans and tilts more smoothly. However, they will be not better at balancing the camera. That is a different story.

Mike

Could a solution be the 501PLONG plate? Works with the 503 head as well, I believe.

Apologies if I've misread any of this thread or the suggestion has been made before. I've spent 14 hours staring at a NLE screen and my eyesight is failing!

Ian . . .