National Park filming legislation - Page 4 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Special Interest Areas > Under Water, Over Land

Under Water, Over Land
Tools & Techniques for Nature, Outdoors, Wildlife & Underwater Videography.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 20th, 2008, 09:17 AM   #46
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New Ulm, MN
Posts: 28
I have been following this thread for awhile and have no new opinion but when Bob Landis came up I thought I would put my two cents in. According to an interview he has almost all of his footage on wolves is from the road. It seems like he is unobtrusive to both the park and wolves. Maybe the key to good access and footage is a low profile.
Dale Bohlke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 09:38 AM   #47
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
Dale,

The problem is that if you don't have a permit and don't pay the fees then you are breaking the law.
Can't you be charged with a felony for breaking a law on Federal land?

I've only filmed on the road, on the trails or on the boardwalks. I don't go anywhere where the public can't go and I don't do anything that professional photographers can't do.

If I was a still photographer I could take photographs anywhere where the public is allowed, sell them to any magazine, calendar company whatever and I don;t have to pay the park a dime. As long as I'm doing what the public is allowed to do, the park service can't do anything.

But, if I pick up a video camera, suddenly I have to pay $200, I have to have a $1,000,000 liability policy with the park service named as an additional insured, PLUS, I was required to pay $65 an hour to have a ranger follow me on a photo tour that was full of still photographers DOING THE SAME THING!
If I had left my video camera at home and brought my still camera I could have taken photographs to my hearts content and not have a worry in the world.

I know I can go into the park and shoot illegally by keeping a low profile and most likely never get caught but why should I have to break the law?

Why is it that when you have a video camera, you have to prove yourself to the park service that you can follow laws etc when still photographers do not.
I've personally seen still photographers do things that were blatantly against the rules.

I don't have a problem paying a fee for a permit that covers all federal land. I think photographers should have to pay it as well. It gives something back to the park.
You could make the argument that the park is there because we've paid for it and continue to pay for it so why should we have to pay for something that we've already paid for again? But if the money stays with the parks and national forests etc for improvements or whatever then fine.

Bob Landis is the unofficial official filmmaker for Yellowstone. I'd bet money he pays a single $200 fee for the year and that's it.

I emailed him asking about it and he did say that you can get a permit that covers the whole year. Well, maybe he can because Stacy Vallie, the film permit officer in Yellowstone, basically indicated to me in an email that these fees she was imposing on me were for my first trip in February even though I had asked if I could get the permit to cover the year as I planned on filming there several times over the course of the year.

So, why can Bob shoot for a year for $200 and no one else can?

I'm almost half temped to go for an extended trip in Yellowstone shoot as much as I can then put the footage all in the public domain.

Since I'm not making money off the footage, there's no permit required nothing. Maybe if this bill fails that's what I will do.

Someone needs footage of something in Yellowstone, I'll shoot it for free and put the footage into the public domain.

Can you tell I'm irritated by this? :)
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 09:55 AM   #48
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
BTW, here's an interview of Bob talking about his film In the Valley of the Wolves where he says he spent 1200 days in the park filming.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...3&id=203180821
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 10:01 AM   #49
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Deep South, U.S.
Posts: 1,384
Kevin, we have got to work hard to see that this bill goes through. I don't want to slink around in the parks either violating the regulations. I will add that even though we are in agreement on the $200 yearly fee and say it gets passed, that is not the end of it. Federal agencies are notorious for adding extras such as seperate commercial iability insurance in the ridiculous amount of 1 million as well as additional processing fees. I just hope the permit process is kept simple.
__________________
Mark
videos: http://vimeo.com/channels/3523
Mark Williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 10:04 AM   #50
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,012
wow, this thread is humming along! i haven't had a chance to check in, in a few days. glad to see some mo-mo building.

one suggestion that i would make for any letter writing campaign would be to say something about how changes in digital video technology has created a new class of serious amateur video hobbyist, just as still camera technology has widened the field of long lens users who can be mistaken for professionals.

something about a tiered structure for fees, so that the serious video hobbyists is assessed the same as the serious amateur photographer (e.g. nothing!)

and the single commercial operator is not assessed the same as a crew--certainly they are quite different in terms of their impact...

maybe we should make a video and link it to the congressperson's letter--a picture worth a thousand words!

anyway, just a few suggestions on the fly....rules should keep up with the changes in the marketplace which are created by changes in technology.

maybe we need to make a video to link to add to the congressperson's letter --- picture worth a thousand words and all that! we are image people after all...
Meryem Ersoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 10:15 AM   #51
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
Mark,
I'm sure if this bill manages to pass,it'll be a constant vigil to keep on top of things wanting to creep in an get added.

But you know, the fact that I had to add the park service onto my liability policy even makes it more ludicrous.

I mean if you trip over Joe Public's tripod at Old Faithful don't you think the park would be named in a suit as well as the photographer for allowing a tripping hazard on the boardwalk?

They have less problems with me since they've got a million dollar policy that I'm paying for should something happen that I cause.

So, aren't they even more protected by me than the general public? Yet they want to require me to pay for a ranger to sit and watch to make sure no one trips over my tripod while right next to me is a photographer who has no insurance to protect the park setting up their tripod.

I think it's a good idea for everyone these days to have a liability policy.
Now that the park service is on my policy it doesn't cost anything additional to renew it.

I checked with my insurance agent and if you add the park service on as an additional insured at renewal time, it costs nothing. If you add them any time other than at renewal time it's $35.

Course that's the insurance company that underwrites my policy, others may differ.

I wish I could sit in a room with these people and tell them face to face about all this.

i think I'll call my local congressmen's offices and see when they will be back in town and schedule an appointment.
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 11:26 AM   #52
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
Meryem,

The current law is tiered to a certain extant. One to two filmmakers with minimal crew pay the $200, liability policy and ranger fees if needed.

Anything more than that and you start paying location fees for every location based on the size of your film crew and what you are needing to do.

This bill really doesn't change that other than saying if you're a crew of less than five and you're doing stuff that the public can do, we'll charge ya $200 for a permit but it will cover all the Federal lands and you're good to go for a year on all Federal lands.

By the way, the current costs mentioned above? That's just for Yellowstone.
Want to film next door in Grand Teton?

"Upon approval of the application, you must present certificate of insurance and a $100.00 permit fee. If it is deemed that a monitor (NPS employee) is to be assigned to your project, there will be a minimum fee of $154.00 per monitor for the first two hours and $50.00 per monitor per hour thereafter. A minimum of $154.00 per monitor will be charged for any assignment, including the cancellation of a given project, regardless of the reason."

I've got a call in to the Glacier National Park permit officer since they don't have permit information on their website. I imagine it's going to be pretty similar to the other two.

Want to go next door to film in Shoshone National Forest, which is beautiful by the way:

Motion Picture and Video Filming.

Daily Rate for....................Daily Rate for
Number of People____Location Each____Staging Area
1-10......................$150.....................$75
11-30.....................$250.....................$125
31-60......................$450.....................$225
61-100....................$600......................$300
over 100...................$600.....................$300

Use of Congressional or agency identified areas such as Wilderness, Research Natural Areas $150

As you can see, you can generate a pretty substantial bill in a short amount of time especially if they are a lot like Yellowstone and will stick you for every penny they can.
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com

Last edited by Kevin Railsback; March 20th, 2008 at 03:18 PM.
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 11:46 AM   #53
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
Do you want to film this beautiful scene at Effigy Mounds in my home state of Iowa?



Well, guess what? It's managed by the national park service and you're going to need a separate permit just to film there as well.

As always, if you're shooting still photographs to sell, it's completely free.

I have a call into the head ranger to find out all the fees I'll need to pay to shoot in my own backyard basically.
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com

Last edited by Kevin Railsback; March 20th, 2008 at 03:20 PM.
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 01:19 PM   #54
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Deep South, U.S.
Posts: 1,384
Kevin,

Thanks for the detailed info. on the insurance. Yes, I carry personal liability insurance but the NPS is not specifically named. My experience with permit issuance for big productions is $1million may be required for shooting on my agency's managed property (Dept. of Army) with the agency specifically named on the policy. That's probably about right for a big production. But for little old me, a one man operation, certainly overkill and not necessary. Being a long-term federal employee I have seen various policy decissions made over the years that take simple issues and make them very complex. The wording on H.R. 5502 is pretty straight forward. I hope it ends up staying that way.
__________________
Mark
videos: http://vimeo.com/channels/3523
Mark Williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 01:39 PM   #55
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
You and I both Mark! :)

We're not even asking for what still photographers already have, just trying to not go bankrupt if we want to film on Federal lands.
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21st, 2008, 12:25 PM   #56
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
Well, I talked with Chris Tesar, the film permit officer in Glacier to find out their requirements and fees.
They're pretty much the same as Yellowstone's.

$100 application fee
$50/hr monitoring fee $150 minimum per day.

Liability policy with the park service added as an additional insured.
PLUS, I have to add Glacier National Park as an additional insured as well so that's another $35 for that.

PLUS, the park may request that a credit line be added as well.

Looks like I'll need a second and maybe third job if I want to film on any national par, forest or BLM land. :)

Off to talk to the ranger at Effigy Mounds National Monument to see what the costs are for shooting there since it's only about an hours drive for me.
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21st, 2008, 12:55 PM   #57
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oppland, Norway
Posts: 1,394
Kevin, I feel real sorry for the trouble you got over there regarding the high fees your have to pay!
If there are anything I/we (foreigners) could do to support you, I would gladly help you out!
What about put up a website where people could sign their names supporting your effort against those iniquitous rules!?
__________________
- Per Johan
Per Johan Naesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21st, 2008, 01:02 PM   #58
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
Per,

I think you could have a great impact. These permits and fees effect you as well.
If you wanted to come to the Jackson Hole Wildlife Film Festival next year and wanted to add some shooting trips to Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Park, you would be subjected to the same permit and fees as I would be.

If we're just shooting vacation video, you wouldn't have to pay a fee. But, isn't it the dream of most of us here to make a living doing this?

I've never started a grass roots movement before so I'm new at all of this.
I'd be happy to start a website, add a petition etc.

If anyone has experience in this kind of thing, shoot me an email and I'll do whatever I can to get this ball rolling to the next level.
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21st, 2008, 01:05 PM   #59
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Last Outpost MN
Posts: 70
Kevin,

Have sent out about 35 letters and e-mails and am working on a couple of ideas which if they pan out will message you later.


Mike Blumberg
http://www.arrowmakerproductions.com
Nature is the Contributor. I am an Observer of the Contributor.
Mike Blumberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21st, 2008, 01:11 PM   #60
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,499
Awesome Mike!

One of the things I was thinking about and don't remember if it was mentioned already is contacting the states tourism boards about this.

I mean if I can't afford to shoot in Yellowstone and Glacier, I'm certainly not going to be visiting Montana and Wyoming.

I spend money there on hotel rooms, gas, food, entertainment, gifts etc.
__________________
--==Kevin==--
http:filmmakingnaturally.com
Kevin Railsback is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Special Interest Areas > Under Water, Over Land

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:34 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network