LCD monitors
 

This discussion on using CRT monitors on DV productions sounds like a contradiction to me. CRTs are heavy, drain a lot of battery and are difficult to place during shooting.

Even if Sony CRT monitors have been the only ones I have used until now on my Beta jobs, I think it's time to move onto something more practical.

What about LCD types? The ones I could see, like a 7" model from Panasonic and some Boland types, look like interesting candidates for quality LCD monitoring.

Has anyone monitored a video project with a proper LCD brand?

Boland types are not easy to find and I don't know if anyone heard of them. They are not cheap either, as their highest quality types are priced close to Sony's PVM-8045Q.

The question is how reliable LCD can be, both in viewing quality and reliability. Perhaps trying an LCD side by side with a CRT may bring some light there on image precision.

In my opinion this is an area that deserves looking into. There's very little information anywhere about it.


Carlos E. Martinez

[Carlos: I calved and moved your post to create a new thread here, since it is actually a completely new topic and not related to "Photo Management".]

Yes, I routinely use a Panasonic 7" LCD monitor rather than my Sony 8045Q. Honestly, I can't say that they're competely equivalent. The LCD does not have quite the same properties as the Sony. But it's certainly close enough to make the Panasonic a very practical, and far more convenient, alternative. Mine has been Nebtek'ed to enable it to use Canon BP series batteries...a very convenient power option.

Carlos,

I'll second Ken's comments. I took his recommendation a few months back and purchased the Pany. Took a bit of soul searching to drop that kind of cash on a LCD but it has shown to be well worth it. In my case, I fabricated a mount that fits on a Anton Bauer Ultra Light II mount. It provides the 12vdc so I only have on cable to connect to the cam. I especially appreciate that it will display my cams native 16x9 image. My thoughts are that future proofing gear investments means buying gear that is 16x9 compatible.

I am quite glad Ken and Rob are happy with their Pana LCD monitor.

Actually I saw one at a recent Argentina equipment show, and it worked stunningly well.

How much did you pay for it, Rob? It's $520 from B&H.

Now it maye a question of seeing how to better set them up.

A protective hood of some kind seems like a must.

I am still waiting for more information on the Boland, as they have a very extense line of LCD monitors. They are probably quite good to get away with the prices they are asking.

Can you describe your mount, Rob?


Carlos

Carlos:

My feelings are this: there's no question that CRT monitors have all of the negatives you listed. However, there are no LCD's or equivalent technology on the market that can provide as reliable a reference. If you use your LCD for framing purposes, then certainly units like the Panasonic are an excellent match for a DV camera. If your intention is to compete visually with a higher-end medium such as HD or film, intend to do a film-out of your project, or have it projected at festivals, it is probably still adviseable to work with a solid broadcast CRT to be able to judge the nuances of exposure and lighting.

Basically, CRT=what you see is what you get. LCD=what you see may be similar to what you get, depending on the angle you are looking at the screen, and the color isn't really accurate (so should I use the 1/4 CTO or the 1/2 CTO on that backlight? Hard to tell the difference on that LCD) etc etc.

<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert :
My feelings are this: there's no question that CRT monitors have all of the negatives you listed. However, there are no LCD's or equivalent technology on the market that can provide as reliable a reference. -->>>

A reference is as good as its user. Why not make an LCD into a reliable reference? What do we need? Perhaps cheaper LCD screen coming on DV cameras are unreliable, but I am not too sure other types qualify like that.

Is there any electronics engineer reading this that may suggest a reason why LCD can not compete with CRT? Three-cannon TV projectors have been displaced by LCD types, and they were CRT too. So I am not too sure we can not get to a working formula here. Maybe just a way to look at things in a different light.

<<<--If you use your LCD for framing purposes, then certainly units like the Panasonic are an excellent match for a DV camera. If your intention is to compete visually with a higher-end medium such as HD or film, intend to do a film-out of your project, or have it projected at festivals, it is probably still adviseable to work with a solid broadcast CRT to be able to judge the nuances of exposure and lighting.-->>>

Maybe that's why I am getting more and more convinced that if you are going to work for more demanding mediums like HD or video for film, and still keep things light and practical, we should go back to reliable tools like meters. There's no better way to judge nuances.

<<<--Basically, CRT=what you see is what you get. LCD=what you see may be similar to what you get, depending on the angle you are looking at the screen, and the color isn't really accurate (so should I use the 1/4 CTO or the 1/2 CTO on that backlight? Hard to tell the difference on that LCD) etc etc. -->>>

Let's get one thing right: an LCD screen (and a CRT too probably) should be used with a hood. All the time. It will also protect it from the sun or strong lights. So the angle would always be the same: straight ahead. Why color won't be accurate? We are talking quality separate LCDs here, not camera types.

This is getting very interesting. Please list any other etc. you can think of. It's helping me think, at least enough to see how we look at things. Sometimes what we think is a closed concept isn't really so, it's just a way to look at things.

Video makes you think in a different way, and you do because it has a lot of advantages.

I am not asking anyone to degrade quality or settle for less, just try to see if we can see things in a new fashion.


Carlos

Generally I like the idea of using LCD's as well. But I think the biggest problem has to do with the viewing angle, as Charles mentions. The brightness and contrast can really vary considerably by just moving your head a couple inches. It's important to standardize your viewing angle and try to stick with it. This is tough, since I find it a reflex action to just move my head a little if I think the image is too dark or too light. The newer screens are better, but I've yet to see one without some degree of this problem.

A question for Ken and Rob:

Do you use hoods on your Pana LCD screens?

Do they force you to view them in just one angle?

What happens when you change angles? How do you work around this?



Carlos

The angle issue is interesting. Without resorting to throwing a large piece of black fabric over your head and the monitor to create a blackout condition, the next best thing is an angled shade that reflects black back into the face of the monitor. The straight shades that make a "tunnel" are, in my opinion, close to worthless in that you end up looking at a reflection of yourself peering into the end of the tunnel, plus whatever sky is visible around you. Alternatively you can throw that black over your head again, but that's a pain. And as we are pointing out here, LCD's change depending on the angle you look at them, and often they are not optimized to be seen from an angle such as a Hoodman would provide.

I have no doubt that an LCD-type technology will prevail over CRT's within 10 years , but right now I think it's a waiting game.

Carlos

When working out of direct sunlight, I've seen no need for a shade/hood on the LCD. Admittedly, I'm not using it as an absolute for color/contrast/brightness. If I were shooting a feature/documentary and a CRT monitor was practical, I would choose it over the LCD for reasons already mentioned above.

I've used it because:
1. Light, portable and mounts right on top of my cam. Because it's on the cam, my angle of view to the screen is usually pretty consistant. It's great to verify shots and give you a warm feeling that you won't be spending hours in post (but perhaps some time) adjusting for bad exposure. When I'm hand held and moving, it moves with me.
2. I shoot live sports from press boxes. Looking through a viewfinder for hours with the cam on a tripod gets old fast PLUS it's a mighty small image to follow the ball in. The LCD makes it much easier.
3. Since I usually work alone, I already haul enough stuff to the shoot, adding a 20lb monitor with it's additional requirements for power is not appealing.

You asked about the mount I use. It's basically a UL2 Head that has been flipped. It's attached to the LCD by velcro (LOVE that stuff) and powered by the cam battery. This system will only work on cams that have 12 VDC or greater batteries.

i will also be looking at the crt lcd thing this one has caught my eye...

http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/displays_monitors/f_bt-ls1400.html

As Charles noted, LCDs can be a bit angle-sensitive. But, at least to my eyes, 7" Panasonic seems less subject to viewing angle distortion than on-camera LCD's such as those on the GL2 or DVX100. It's also quite bright (as Rob notes) and features an automatic control that modulates the brightness according to the ambient lighting conditions.

I do have, and occasionally use, a Hoodman hood that was specifically designed for the Panasonic. Since the front panel of the monitor is a matte finish you don't get the mirror effect with this straight-view hood that you would with, say, a Sony CRT monitor.

For making critical color and exposure judgements on-set nothing today really beats a good, well-calibrated CRT monitor. But that Panasonic sure comes reasonably close, particularly for the under $10mil budget project <g>.

LCDs simply don't have the contrast of a CRT. Very important when trying to set your lighting up.

As far as sports?
LCDs are great since all the color issues are handled by the support crew and the tech director, unless I'm mistaken.

I operate a Sony/Panavision CineAlta camera mounted on a pedestal for the UPN show, "Rock Me Baby," and I am so frustrated by the problems with the hi def lcd monitors that I am in the process of getting a black and white crt monitor from Panavision for a test. In my work, in the heat of battle, you simply do not have the opportunity to adjust the angle of the lcd to your height all the time. Having had years of experience working with black and white crt's in standard definition television, I was sorely disappointed with the color lcd's. It will be unfortunate to lose the color image in this instance, but I find focusing to be far too difficult with the lcd. However, I will admit that I do not expect all the operators to follow my lead if I use the black and white on a regular basis. But I bet more than a few of them will be interested in my findings using the b&W.

On my other show, "The George Lopez Show,'' we work film style with dollies and camera assistants, and I will not be trading in my color lcd, since I have the aid of my excellent assistant.

I would never use an lcd in the field for critical exposure and lighting decisions. Strictly for framing and "in the ballpark" color balance.

Wayne Orr, SOC

LCD vs CRT
 

I have a sony PVM14m4u as my second monitor on my desktop computer and an LCD 15 inch flatscreen monitor as my primary (monitor 1).

I use the lcd for computer applications and the sony for ANY sort of video output. The LCD looks great for computer applications, very clean and sharp as compared to the sony for computer applications.

BUT for video, there is no comparison, for any application other than framing your shot (which an LCD works great for) a high quality CRT will blow the LCD away in every WAY, SHAPE or FORM (other than the WEIGHT, SHAPE ,and FORM).

This thing weighs like 80 lbs and is the size of a college refrigerator (not to mention costs about 1,500 bucks) but is does have blue gun, underscan, h/v delay, 16:9, rgb in, component in, sdi in, line rgb, external sync, aperature control, bright, contrast, chroma, phase, volume, programmable chroma, phase, color temp, color setup, d65, d93, adjustable gain, bias, range, automatic color correction, 358 trap, yadda yadda yadda.

And would require a 600 lb marine battery to run in the field for more than a few minutes. For less than a 5 (add as many as zeros as required) dollar budget, some CRTs are only for the big guns like Charles :)

Just my silly 2 cents

Wayne:

Knowing Panavision, they'd be more into designing a "bug" that read the height of the pedestal and the tilt of the camera, then motorizing the LCD mount and having it tilt automatically to maintain the appropriate viewing angle to the operator.

Then they'd package it into an oversized project box, put too many connectors on it and it wouldn't work half the time.

Things are not as they used to be with that company, huh?

I find that my Directors like the Sony CRT much better than a LCD. They are used to judging images using a CRT and we can both look at the monitor at the same time and see the same image. The monitor resides in a PortaBrace which does have the viewing tunnel.

My Sony field monitor runs off a battery belt which I just drape on the tripod or it's stand (a PA speaker stand with a top platform). The monitor will run for about 3 hours or so on a single belt. Lots of places I have AC power available anyway so it's no issue at all.

I've not tried to balance out a LCD using color bars. Don't know why I haven't done that yet. I have a 17" Samsung HD TV monitor that is also my normal editing computer monitor. I'll drive it from a S-Video spigot (PIP) along with the computer display and see what it does.

I find this LCD, nice as it is with a good progressive scan input, just doesn't hold a candle to my JVC 14" NTSC monitor when judging video. The LCD doesn't work too well with Photoshop either come to think of it. Not at all like my LaCie electron Blue III computer monitor.

For Wayne & Charles
 

Wayne,

Wow, that sounds like an awesome gig! Very cool.

Sounds like you can use whichever monitor you desire, but I'm bumming that you haven't been impressed by any of the higher-end LCD's? No? I was hoping that there was something out there, even if the cost is $10K, not even from Astro?

I would look to people like you and Charles for this type of info since you are working with the best there is.

Would love to hear back from you when you have time regarding if there is anything up there in the high end LCD market for broadcast/ EFP professionals to use, regardless of the cost, to replace using a CRT.

So far, I have been getting by with three things: Sony PVM-8045Q with Hoodman attachment, PANASONIC/ NEBTEK NEB70XL with KATA LCD case and an IKEGAMI B&W viewfinder with Tiffen Tele-2X. In the studio Iv'e been using the Sony PVM-14M4U.

I am looking to add two new monitors, one for the field which can handle SDI and all the HDTV formats and perform like a CRT and one for the edit suite in the 14" range (I'll definitely go 20" if I can spring it) - I figure that the Sony PVM-L5 with SDI is the new minimum acceptable standard? Please feel free to elaborate if you are aware of something better.

Hoping all is well,

- don

"Things are not as they used to be with that company, huh?"

That's for sure. But I will say they have seen the handwriting on the wall, which puts them ahead of a lot of other companies who have been blind to what is happening with "digital cinema," or whatever you wish to call it. Same is true with a lot of people working in the business. They simply refuse to have anything to do with the new technologies, and a few years from now they will be complaining that they can't get any work. But that's another topic.

Sony is introducing a new line of professional lcd monitors. I have not had an opportunity to investigate them yet, and in fact, I don't know any facility that is using them. They should draw a lot of interest at next year's NAB. Expect them to cost dearly. I believe there is some mention of them in the current issue of Post Magazine.

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Orr :
Sony is introducing a new line of professional lcd monitors. I have not had an opportunity to investigate them yet, and in fact, I don't know any facility that is using them. They should draw a lot of interest at next year's NAB. Expect them to cost dearly. I believe there is some mention of them in the current issue of Post Magazine. -->>>

Yes, you are right.

A friend of mine mentioned the Sony LMD650, which is a 6.5" LCD type, and costs as much as their 8045Q: $1,270 from B&H.

Boland has some high brighness and SDI (optional) models, like:

http://www.bolandcom.com/ds/d104dTFDS.pdf

They are very pricey, at around $2,000. From what I could find in the web, these guys seem to be the ones with a larger line.

Pity their sales contact sucks, as they haven't acknowledge my mail yet. Perhaps someone from the US should call them and get more information: (800) 918-9090.

With such a complete line, it wouldn't be a surprise if they OEMed to companies like Panavision in the future.


Carlos E. Martinez