Why Aja/Blackmagic or Matrox? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > The View: Video Display Hardware and Software

The View: Video Display Hardware and Software
Video Monitors and Media Players for field or studio use (all display technologies).


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 6th, 2010, 10:11 AM   #1
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,385
Why Aja/Blackmagic or Matrox?

This, hopefully, is a simple question.

I'm not capturing footage on my system but merely using it for compositing/vfx work. I need to work on compositing real time full HD/2K files. Do I need an Aja/Blackmagic/Matrox, etc to connect to my monitors or will the nVidia Quadro FX be enough? I can calibrate my monitors with an external device (I'll probably get an Eizo or eCinema combo and an HP as third monitor).

Simply put, if I'm not capturing any data, why would I need any of these cards? I just can't figure out whether I should invest in them. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.
__________________
Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.
Sareesh Sudhakaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2010, 10:22 AM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
Might assist people to know what software application(s) you are working in. Different programs have different capabilities.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2010, 10:31 PM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York NY
Posts: 322
If you want to see your work on a video monitor in the correct color space, then you'll need a capture card to output to the monitor.

The AJA Kona 3 gives you the best options for working with 2k on a 1920x1080 SDI monitor. It will allow you to chose between seeing the whole 2k picture or seeing it pixel to pixel with a crop. I think the Matrox MXO 2 might be able to connect you to the HP Dreamcolor so that you can use it's extended color space options.
Arnie Schlissel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2010, 11:03 PM   #4
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
Might assist people to know what software application(s) you are working in. Different programs have different capabilities.
AE CS5 and Nuke. I'll be finishing the projects on this system. 2K resolution, 24/25fps mostly - working with uncompressed footage for keying and other critical work, but with proxies for the rest. Will finish in an image sequence - EXR, DPX, TIFF or TGA, depending on the project.
__________________
Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.
Sareesh Sudhakaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #5
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie Schlissel View Post
If you want to see your work on a video monitor in the correct color space, then you'll need a capture card to output to the monitor.

The AJA Kona 3 gives you the best options for working with 2k on a 1920x1080 SDI monitor. It will allow you to chose between seeing the whole 2k picture or seeing it pixel to pixel with a crop. I think the Matrox MXO 2 might be able to connect you to the HP Dreamcolor so that you can use it's extended color space options.
If I use DVI-D from my system to the monitor (which is 2K resolution 30 inches) and use a calibrater, can't I get the same result? For example, After Effects simulates various color spaces within the software. I'm sure I'm missing a vital link in the chain, but I just can't figure it out!
__________________
Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.
Sareesh Sudhakaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2010, 04:03 AM   #6
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,385
Found this from the Luster/HP Z800 Setup guide:

Quote:
The Nvidia Quadro FX 5800 graphics adapter drives the LCD monitor directly, and a broadcast monitor via the Nvidia Quadro SDI Output adapter.

The Nvidia Quadro SDI Output adapter supplies 2K, HD, or SD video output to a broadcast monitor, VTR, or SDI projector. The card features a BNC genlock connector that connects to your facility’s sync generator.

AJA OEM-2K adapter and breakout box provides video and audio I/O, and VTR control. The adapter connects to the breakout box, and handles SD (NTSC, PAL), and HD at a depth of 8 and 10 bits.

The AJA distribution amplifier receives its signal from the Nvidia SDI Output adapter and drives a VTR and broadcast monitor. The distribution amplifier is also necessary in order to use the Real-Time Deliverables feature.

So does that mean I don't need the AJA for monitoring purposes if I have a Quadro FX?
__________________
Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.
Sareesh Sudhakaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2010, 07:50 AM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 2,258
FWIW, the Matrox products come with colour calibration included. (This includes the 'blue only' mode.)

Andrew
Andrew Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York NY
Posts: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sareesh Sudhakaran View Post
If I use DVI-D from my system to the monitor (which is 2K resolution 30 inches) and use a calibrater, can't I get the same result? For example, After Effects simulates various color spaces within the software. I'm sure I'm missing a vital link in the chain, but I just can't figure it out!
No. Most computer displays simply cannot render color accurately in either broadcast or film color space. The only real exception is the HP Dreamcolor. But that needs to have the signal fed to it in a very specific way over either displayport or HDMI. The documentation is available from the HP website.

And even if you do put an SDI daughterboard onto an FX 5800, you're still feeding a linear RGB signal out of it, not a YCbCr signal or a RGB Log signal, like you can with a Kona 3.
Arnie Schlissel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2010, 09:38 PM   #9
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,385
Okay...so the bottom line is that I NEED a card for display, because it's the only way I can see true color if I ever need the log color space. If I'm working in only linear, then I don't need the card, right?
__________________
Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.
Sareesh Sudhakaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 08:01 AM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York NY
Posts: 322
Let me simplify this for you. Someone is paying you to create professional output to be used in a TV show or feature film. They assume that you can create output that will look the same in it's final broadcast or screening as it does in your office when you screen it for them.

That's why you need a capture card & a proper monitoring chain.
Arnie Schlissel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2010, 10:12 PM   #11
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,385
Loud and Clear! Thank you, Arnie...that's all I wanted to know. Now I'll spend time learning how to use it. Thanks again.
__________________
Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.
Sareesh Sudhakaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2010, 01:50 AM   #12
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,554
My 2 cents:

AE CS5 is capable of applying LUTs and this is the app which you will be finishing on. For Linear work, I can attest to using AE CS5, Quadro FX3800 via DisplayPort to an Eizo CG243W 'hardware' calibrated to Rec 709 and Rec 601 for broadcast output. With this setup, I have not had a single problem with heavy grading and the broadcast playback looking incorrect. I even tried using a BlackMagic Extreme 3D to my Panasonic BT-LH1710W via HD-SDI to see if there was any benefit for 'my' workflow

The only drawback with AE is no 10bit output; however, a possible workaround is nesting an AE comp within Premiere Pro CS5, which can display 10bit via Displayport (which is why I have a Quadro and an Eizo). FYI, higher-end LCDs like the Eizo also support 3D LUTs.

Just to point out a couple of options for monitoring: Blackmagic has their HDLink with Dual-Link HD-SDI, 2k and DisplayPort output (and 3D LUT). This device connects to a capture card's SDI output such as the Aja Kona 3 and saves you money by not needing to purchase a LCD with SDI input. (I've seen this used with Flame and Smoke systems for client monitoring)

The industry standard is the Aja Kona 3 and is supported with Nuke.
Steve Kalle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2010, 10:23 PM   #13
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,385
Thanks Steve. I love CS5's linear workflow support. My issue is with Nuke, however -

Since I'm rendering out to DPX log files which will go into DI for grading, I need to approximate a film LUT.

However, I've learnt that short of an expensive 2K projector, it is a pointless task to even try for 'perfect' color space. So I'll need to approximate. I have heard good things about the HP dreamcolor monitor and also the cheaper Dell monitors, but they are both LCDs and only approximate the LUT anyway.

Here's one issue. The HP must take in an RGB (not YUV) 10-bit signal for its engine to work and emulate film space. After weeks of researching, people have told me that the Aja or BM cards do this, and this is why I need to have them. However -

The Nvidia Quadro series does output RGB 10-bit, so I can feed it via Displayport directly into my monitor of choice. But, the Nvidia also sells an SDI card to connect with its Quadro series for 2k Playback - makes one wonder...if the Quadro by itself can deliver 2K resolution for games, why do we need the SDI just for 'footage'? For Nuke, the GPU isn't that important.

So where's the catch in -
Buying a GTX 470/480
Connecting a YUV signal to a cheap ($1000) dell 27" ultrasharp monitor
Calibrating it with a spyder along with support from the DI lab/facility so my monitors approximate their displays just enough so there are no great surprises when they receive the file.

Why spend on expensive montiors and I/O cards? Sorry about the long post, but it's been one hell of a week reading through the mucky world of working in linear color space. I'm beginning to feel I must elect Stu for president!
__________________
Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.
Sareesh Sudhakaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #14
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,554
The problem with using consumer LCDs such as any Dell is that they cannot be calibrated beyond gamma and white point using something like a Spyder or EyeOne(i1). Whereas an Eizo CG243W can be 'hardware' calibrated to any color space in addition to using 3D LUTs.

And...there is a significant difference between a calibrated Dell Ultrasharp and an Eizo CG243W as I have both next to one another.

Furthermore, I see no reason to choose the HP over the Eizo as the Eizo can do everything and then some but NOT have the requirements of the HP for video signal. Plus, the Eizo can use a $100 i1 calibrator versus the HP's $350 (in US).

It appears as though you don't need a capture card unless you must have client monitoring. Because someone else will be finishing/grading on another system, a Quadro FX via Displayport to an Eizo will work great for your setup.
Steve Kalle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2010, 09:31 PM   #15
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,385
Thanks Steve. Appreciate it!
My first preference is the Eizo. Getting it in India is the issue.
__________________
Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.
Sareesh Sudhakaran is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > The View: Video Display Hardware and Software

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:08 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network