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Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old August 6th, 2007, 10:12 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Richard Wakefield View Post
DVD idea 2 for example: shame to think your distinctive arty LS 'look' is gonna be potentially mimmicked by all who buy it. you'd be giving away tips on your best-stuff! :)
No disrespect meant to Patrick or anyone else, but I disagree with this point. Wedding videographers in general have a bad reputation because there are so many amateurish ones out there. Because of this, many wedding videographers are underpaid for what they do. I think the solution is to help each other get better. If we can improve the general population of videographers, we will improve our image and everyone will benefit.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 12:30 PM   #17
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Sorry guys i wasn't saying don't do it by all means, it was sort of a joke the way i said it...i share ideas ALL the time, i get alot of emails out the blue asking me how i did this, how i did that, and i know how we all like to share information, the main reason why we use this forum for a start

and i agree, it's actually more the creative eye behind the technical side which makes us each different anyway. that's something that a DVD or workshop can't easily teach.

i'm not sure what to say about the prices though: make it cheaper, and you'll no doubt sell hundreds...keep it at $2-300, and you'll sell to a more serious and select market..i've seen in the past on this forum some heavily-priced DVDs and 'workshops', and there's every reason why Patrick should be charging the same or more

something i'd like to see on the DVD is how you cope with people who aren't willing to do the sort of shots we normally see from you Patrick. and how you cope in places with poor audio/lighting/weather etc etc.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 03:23 PM   #18
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Hi Patrick,

First - have just visited your site and your work is genuinely beautiful and inspiring, so well done indeed. Straight away I'm interested in finding out how you acheive those results, and would love to get my hands on a DVD explaining how.



Second - I would vote for option 4

"DVD 4 idea: Our last idea would be a much simpler one, and would basically be a behind-the-scenes look at how we shoot a wedding, how we intereact with couples, setup (or don't setup) shots, as well as the final product they received. This would include a full wedding video from start to finish as the couple received it as well as a bunch of footage and commentary of us actualy shooting that wedding."

I agree with your idea of bypassing the basics and aiming for intermediary to advanced customers. Personaly I'd like to see the process from the beginning. Starting with your overall philosophy on the concept - "Wedding Videography", then maybe how you introduce the couples to your techniques, how you would deal with any concerns they might have. How do you plan a shoot, is it extensive preparation involving pre-shoot location visits and scouting, or do you just bring all the equipment and follow the ebb and flow of the day? What do you look for when sourcing equipment? Definitely it would be interesting to see a shot, or sequence of shots from a fly on the wall, warts and all, perspective, then immediately cut to how it looks on the final DVD. Lots of tips/tricks you've developed over the years would be excellent. Approach to problem dark-shoots. Don't forget audio, and editing.

Price of $200 - $300... I think you'd need to offer quite an in-depth package to hit the $300 mark. Perhaps offer it as a series of 2 DVD's, each concentrating on a specific aspect of your work. Buy them individualy for $x buy both for €x +1/2? I guess it depends on what's in them.



Thirdly - I'm with Adam on this - videographers have traditionaly had a lousy reputation in general with brides, thanks to far too many chancers jumping in with inferior equipment and inferior knowledge - then handing over inferior results for quick money. This is a constant problem for those of us who are prepared to put in the extra time and energy to make a difference and raise this profession to a new level. If there is a tidal shift of higher performance over the next few years, with the help of people like Patrick sharing their ideas, then all the boats in the harbour rise, it's good for everyone, and maybe we can start to get the credit we deserve.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 03:48 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Richard Wakefield View Post
you'd be giving away tips on your best-stuff!
A complete non-issue, in my opinion. Generally speaking, just like wedding photographers, the only real competition a wedding videographer has is the number of other wedding videographers in his or her *local* market; their immediate geographical area. You could freely share tips and techniques nation wide or world wide without hurting your business, as the vast majority of wedding packages are sold locally.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 04:47 PM   #20
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A complete non-issue, in my opinion. Generally speaking, just like wedding photographers, the only real competition a wedding videographer has is the number of other wedding videographers in his or her *local* market; their immediate geographical area. You could freely share tips and techniques nation wide or world wide without hurting your business, as the vast majority of wedding packages are sold locally.
like i said i was joking (sorry, hard to tell when you write it :)
i share and take on tips ALL the time, (yep, even with local videographers) like we all do on here. hell, i didn't even know what a Love Story was 1.5yrs ago, LOL!
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Old August 6th, 2007, 05:11 PM   #21
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I like the idea for DVD #4. I would love to have the others as well, but they are probably not as important as #4 for me.

Also, I agree with those that think your price point is probably too high. There are lots of other training materials out there in the $100/DVD range, and unless someone knows you personally I don't think they'll pay 3 times that amount. To be perfectly honest, I've purchased training materials in the past and have mostly been dissapointed with the lack of real information. So I'm somewhat jaded towards training materials, and I imagine there are plenty of others in the same position.

With that said, it's much easier to justify spending $100-150 on a training DVD than $300, considering you don't know how useful it will be for you.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 05:14 PM   #22
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hell, i didn't even know what a Love Story was 1.5yrs ago, LOL!
That's all right; I didn't even know what a "Trash the Dress" was two weeks ago!
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Old August 6th, 2007, 08:45 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
A complete non-issue, in my opinion. Generally speaking, just like wedding photographers, the only real competition a wedding videographer has is the number of other wedding videographers in his or her *local* market; their immediate geographical area. You could freely share tips and techniques nation wide or world wide without hurting your business, as the vast majority of wedding packages are sold locally.
While I understand where your coming from Chris and in general I agree, almost half of our packages now are out of our area, whether that be hours away, the province, or the country. I good majority of the traveling we do is not even for destination weddings but just because the couple can't find what they want in their area. I don't think us sharing our work on here and possibly selling training DVDs is really going to slow us down in terms of how many couples want our services, and I do really believe in rying to help make the undustry as a whole better as I think that benefits us all.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 10:02 PM   #24
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I do really believe in rying to help make the undustry as a whole better as I think that benefits us all.
Well said and I completely agree with you.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 11:09 PM   #25
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I'd like to chime in here..

#1) Patrick, I *love* your stuff. Nobody does it better. I sure hope the people you produce for realize how lucky they are to have you and your crew working their special day.

#2) I too would probably have the most interest in disc #4, but the others have interest as well. Maybe #3 next.

#3) I do agree the $200 - $300 price point is probably out of the reach of the majority of your rather "smallish" potential client list (no offense to the business, it just isn't that large...really). Consider also the fact you'll likely be catering a little more towards a newer crowd in the market rather than people who have built up lots of experience in this industry. That market is even less funded. You seem to be at the higher end of your market in what you charge for what you do now, this makes a lot of sense considering the downsides of the wedding videography business (no repeat customers, no multiple purchases for the one product). Getting into the video training/distribution business is a 180 degree different animal.

I'm thinking a price point of around $89/ea or $299 for all four makes more sense. Please, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that the value of what you produce isn't worth $300 per disk. I simply believe you will sell 3-4 times as many at this price point and, in the end, make more money. Also consider your forums of distribution. Obviously you'll have it for sale on either your exisiting website or a new website, but while this can be successfull in itself nothing can move product than larger merchandising companies or chains. Wholesaling your video's out for 20-30% less and offering drop shipping at no charge might seem like you are really giving it away, but the volume could easily make up for it and I think what you might be looking for here is widespread adoption as your video as the "industry standard" to learning how to shoot video's. Don't underestimate the power of volume as this market is relatively small and word of mouth goes a long way in this business. Your stuff is great, I have NO doubt you'll create a DVD series that offers great value to the end user.

Remember, unlike a wedding video where you don't really have the opportunity of repeat business and you only earn of what you do, one time. A DVD series like this is creating once and duplication costs are dirt cheap. Time is also on your side because this material is not likely to be dated anytime soon - weddings have and in our lifetimes likely will remain essentially the same. Video equipment will change, but not so much that it will require a complete redo of the video series.

Just think, selling 5,000 discs a year at $50/ea is a quarter of a million dollars with a cost of virtually zero. :)

Lastly... Getting a large following and trust relationship with the market and also strong inroads with distributors will make future videos you do that much easier. Oh, and the demand for your existing business will likely increase as well... Lot's of good to be had here...

Jon
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Old April 15th, 2008, 10:50 AM   #26
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Has anything ever happened on this, did you make the training DVDs and are you selling them?

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Old April 15th, 2008, 11:00 AM   #27
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We haven't started production yet as we are still brainstorming and seeing exactly where we want to go. The problem is that I feel we could put a lot of really valuable information on a training DVD from basic to advanced training, tis and tricks, as well as a really solid business side to things- when I put that all together though it is surely something we would want to charge much more than other training DVDs due to the time to create them and how much more involved I think we can go with this. No matter how much I feel we can teach in a DVD and really help a company grow, I don't think many people would really be interested in the $599 range.

On the other hand, we are considering doing a much simpler more of behind-the-scenes feature in the near future that shows a lot of the advanced tools we use, how we get specific shots, the related footage out of the camera and after grading, as well as how we then market these things. I could see this being much closer to $199.

Patrick
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Old April 15th, 2008, 02:48 PM   #28
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That would be something I would pre order immediately! Great to hear you didn't scrap the idea.

Great work on the California shoot by the way. How did you manage with Customs and gear. Don't be afraid to pm me your secrets. ;0
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Old April 15th, 2008, 06:54 PM   #29
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Training materials

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Cossel View Post
To be perfectly honest, I've purchased training materials in the past and have mostly been dissapointed with the lack of real information. So I'm somewhat jaded towards training materials, and I imagine there are plenty of others in the same position.
That is where I fall. I've put out $450 in the last 6 months on training DVDs and wasted $150 of it (the VASST vegas discs 1-3... nothing useful there for anyone that has more than 1 month of Vegas experience or has dedicated actual effort to research here & learn on their own).

My other purchase was some of the Van Loken's discs (used) which I did find interesting, but there was no way I was going to buy it for $100 a disc. The price to valeu ratio is too much of an unknown to risk that much. Also, I find the training discs to be generally short. 45 minutes. Just didn't feel like the pace (generally very slow) covered much territory for 45 minutes.

#4 is of highest interest for me (mainly because no one asks about same day edits here so there is no market) followed by 2 & 3. I would love to watch #3, but since you shoot with gear so far above what I have access to, it would be a purely theoretical experience. Don't get me wrong, that might be the one that interests me the most, but I have no way to implement any of that, even if business doubles in the next year (which it already has from last year).
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Old April 15th, 2008, 08:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Patrick Moreau View Post
We haven't started production yet as we are still brainstorming and seeing exactly where we want to go. The problem is that I feel we could put a lot of really valuable information on a training DVD from basic to advanced training, tis and tricks, as well as a really solid business side to things- when I put that all together though it is surely something we would want to charge much more than other training DVDs due to the time to create them and how much more involved I think we can go with this. No matter how much I feel we can teach in a DVD and really help a company grow, I don't think many people would really be interested in the $599 range.

On the other hand, we are considering doing a much simpler more of behind-the-scenes feature in the near future that shows a lot of the advanced tools we use, how we get specific shots, the related footage out of the camera and after grading, as well as how we then market these things. I could see this being much closer to $199.

Patrick
Hey Patrick:

You should host some seminars at your studio for the higher end option. The instructional DVD or download could be skill specific: Steadicam, 35mm adapter, HD workflow, Color grading, etc.

-John
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