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Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old April 15th, 2008, 09:07 PM   #31
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There are two things to consider here ... what would benefit Patrick best in terms of sales ... and what would benefit the rest of us best in terms of content.

In terms of sales, I don't know if marketing a beginner/intermediate DVD set or an intermediate/advanced DVD set is going to make more money. Sorry.

In terms of what I'd like to see, an intermediate/advanced DVD set I think is a better option. There are countless training DVD's already out there for the beginner. Granted, most of them aren't that great, but I honestly think it's a waste of Patrick's talent and knowledge to put out something for beginners. Patrick, I think you're much more valuable to all of the intermediate level videographers that are around (I include myself here). For us there is virtually nothing worth paying money for.

Just my thoughts.
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Old April 16th, 2008, 01:19 AM   #32
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Hey Patrick:

You should host some seminars at your studio for the higher end option. The instructional DVD or download could be skill specific: Steadicam, 35mm adapter, HD workflow, Color grading, etc.

-John
Hi John,

I'm glad you mentioned the in-studio seminar as it is certainly something I have been considering. Taking into account the cost of flights and accommodations though, it would be a rather expensive workshop as well and though I have absolutely no doubt that the value would be there many time over, I don't know how many people would willing to take that leap.

I think over the next while we will compile some solid options regarding seminars, training DVDs, content and fees and post it up on our blog, as well as here, to see how many people would be interested in either. We have refined what we want to offer by quite a bit so I can be much more detailed this time around.

Patrick
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Old April 16th, 2008, 07:24 AM   #33
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Hi John,

I'm glad you mentioned the in-studio seminar as it is certainly something I have been considering. Taking into account the cost of flights and accommodations though, it would be a rather expensive workshop as well and though I have absolutely no doubt that the value would be there many time over, I don't know how many people would willing to take that leap.

I think over the next while we will compile some solid options regarding seminars, training DVDs, content and fees and post it up on our blog, as well as here, to see how many people would be interested in either. We have refined what we want to offer by quite a bit so I can be much more detailed this time around.

Patrick
No doubt it would be more expensive for some in-house training but there is a percentage of people that realize the importance of investing in yourself and to really raise the expectations of wedding cinematography. There is no comparison to small intimate training sessions because not only are you learning the technical stuff but you are networking and collaborating. My opinion, it has more value and thus more associated cost. The flip side for you is the time involved coupled with keeping up with weddings and life as well. I need to go see the Falls anyway :)

-John
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Old April 16th, 2008, 01:14 PM   #34
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Please allow me to encourage you to go along with the DVDs. If you sell them at $100 a pop, I promise I'd buy all 4!
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Old April 16th, 2008, 01:47 PM   #35
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I would be interested in a tutorial of how to find fresh music that are appropriate for a wedding video.
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Old April 16th, 2008, 03:39 PM   #36
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Patrick,
If you're looking for a gauge of interest, look no further than the number of people who have looked at your post. I'd say 1,200 to 1,500 is a pretty decent number of interested people.

Maybe you should create a more expensive product much as you have with your wedding videos. Make it good enough and different enough and people will come up with the money to watch. Seems that you've done well not doing things cheaply and cutting corners. Just a thought.
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Old April 17th, 2008, 12:16 AM   #37
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Patrick,
If you're looking for a gauge of interest, look no further than the number of people who have looked at your post. I'd say 1,200 to 1,500 is a pretty decent number of interested people.

Maybe you should create a more expensive product much as you have with your wedding videos. Make it good enough and different enough and people will come up with the money to watch. Seems that you've done well not doing things cheaply and cutting corners. Just a thought.
Excellent idea Ethan- I like how you put that and it is exactly how I want to approach this.
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Old April 18th, 2008, 12:08 AM   #38
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Hey Patrick,

Love the idea of some Still Motion instructional DVDs. My wife always says next time we go the the states or Canada we'd be happy to carry your bags and learn from you guys.

The four DVD ideas you list are great - and I'd defintely want to purchase them.

Other areas that might be of interest:
- How you market and brand yourselves to your clients
- How you set yourself apart from your competition - i.e. aside from the obvious quality of your work
- Other business tips/advice etc ...

I find that from a technical aspect (filming techniques, colour grading, 35mm adapters, steadicam etc ... ) one can learn heaps just from watching the awesome work that guys like you and Jason Magbanua and others are producing - or from reading this forum - and then practicing, experimenting and implementing it into our own work.

But, it is often the behind the scenes of running a successful business that doesn't get much attention. No point in having the most awesome footage or steadicam technique if you've got no clients to offer it to.

That's what I'd want to pick your brain about anyway.

Cheers,

Matthew.
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Old April 18th, 2008, 12:28 AM   #39
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The thing with seminars is that when it comes to high-end wedding videography, you need to work with a "crew", meaning multiple people representing a studio and this group has to know each other well and be familiar with each others' shooting habits/styles.

So when we say seminar, we're talking a format that needs to accommodate multiple people from each studio and multiple studios.. that's a lot of people from the instructors' perspective and a lot of cost to attend from the clients' perspective. Otherwise, one person by himself can hardly apply his new found knowledge at the seminar with strangers he just met. Seminars in the wedding photography world works much better because one person + bag of gear + hired model for the day are all that's needed to engage fully with the seminar and apply the new knowledge.
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Old April 18th, 2008, 02:15 AM   #40
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I would most definitely purchase all 4 for a package price. Out of your 4 ideas, number 4 would interest me the most.

The write off alone is worth it ;), save for the information that will allow you to cost just that much more than your competition if you learn something different than your local market.

If you're going to have a less expensive option, please still do the 4 disc set. Like mentioned earlier, you do have a demand. Maybe an introductory offer price and then raise it after that period. If you sold the package as a set for $400 and only sold a 1/4 of the viewers of this thread, that's still some nice change ;).
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Old April 19th, 2008, 12:37 PM   #41
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[QUOTE=Yang Wen;862646]The thing with seminars is that when it comes to high-end wedding videography, you need to work with a "crew", meaning multiple people representing a studio and this group has to know each other well and be familiar with each others' shooting habits/styles.
QUOTE]

Some of our best shoots have come when shot by either myself or Michael by ourself, so I don't think you need a whole studio to produce top notch work. When you get into things like SDEs, then you certainly benefit much more from additional people.

For me, the idea behind showing advanced shooting techniques such as glidecam/steadicam/35mm adapters is less about the tool and what it does and more about opening your mind to see things in a completely new way. That vision persists even without the equipment. By the very nature of how the mind works, we have a tendency to see patterns and the world around us in a very structured and predictable way- the challenge is to find a way to shake that up and see things completely differently.

Patrick
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Old April 20th, 2008, 11:29 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Patrick Moreau View Post
Some of our best shoots have come when shot by either myself or Michael by ourself, so I don't think you need a whole studio to produce top notch work. When you get into things like SDEs, then you certainly benefit much more from additional people.
Sure, ultimately, it is just one person behind each camera. What I'm saying is that person HAS TO work with others to create a compelling video, especially when capturing a real-time event like a wedding. In other words, a single person can't just fly around all day by himself and create a DVD of well executed glidecam shots and call it a video. He has to juxtaposition his video from the glidecam with complimentary style video shot by someone else, ie, close-ups, details, etc... So in essence the studio has to be a well oiled machine with multiple shooters in matching styles.. if one person is flying around capturing graceful glidecam shots, his partner probably shouldn't be shooting snap-zoom happy. If it becomes a gear/technique based seminar, then I see little value in it other than for the studios who already work in similar fashion as you guys.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Moreau View Post
For me, the idea behind showing advanced shooting techniques such as glidecam/steadicam/35mm adapters is less about the tool and what it does and more about opening your mind to see things in a completely new way. That vision persists even without the equipment. By the very nature of how the mind works, we have a tendency to see patterns and the world around us in a very structured and predictable way- the challenge is to find a way to shake that up and see things completely differently.
That would be an excellent topic to base the seminar on, something I would highly value. I suspect this kind of seminar will have much larger appeal overall.
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Old April 20th, 2008, 06:47 PM   #43
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[QUOTE=Yang Wen;863937]Sure, ultimately, it is just one person behind each camera. What I'm saying is that person HAS TO work with others to create a compelling video, especially when capturing a real-time event like a wedding. In other words, a single person can't just fly around all day by himself and create a DVD of well executed glidecam shots and call it a video. He has to juxtaposition his video from the glidecam with complimentary style video shot by someone else, ie, close-ups, details, etc...

I have to disagree.
It is hard to do, but it's doable. Just look at the last highlights from still-motion on their blog. Tony did an awesome job shooting with 3 cams by himself. Was it hard? I bet you.

On the other hand, yes, it is so much better and it is HUGE difference when you have a team of 2-3 shooters. And if they know each-other well and work smoothly together, you will get amazing results.

I think the idea behind such a workshop is to see how it all works together, how you can make it original and different from what's out there and to get energized, pumped to go and step it up. All it takes is for one person to be there and then he can pass it on to his colleagues at the studio. You don't need the whole team at the seminar. And, as you already said, it would be expensive.
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Old April 20th, 2008, 09:49 PM   #44
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As an intermediate user, I find DVD4 to be the most appealing. I would buy it in a heartbeat. Anything from still-motion would merit at least $150 off the bat.

The walkthrough of one of your weddings would be a great educational resource. From it alone, the other topics you listed would be covered at least in passing (sde production, and the tools you use of course).

I'm not a big fan of how-to instructionals hence the preference for DVD4. I believe it's more important to understand why an artist does what he does rather than how he does it.

How will teach you one trick in the bag, Why will open a whole plethora of possibilities. But people who don't get it will merely clamor for the how.

as an aside: That's my struggle as a person who does workshops and seminars - balancing the how (concrete things an attendee might pick up) with the why (inspiring and widening horizons).
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Old April 20th, 2008, 09:50 PM   #45
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35MM Adapter Macro Tricks

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