Gauging interest in training DVD ideas...
We have been receiving a ton of phone calls and emails lately asking us about how we do what we do, workflow questions, as well as very specific questions about certain shots.
As we don't have time to answer all the phone calls and emails individually, we are developing a Q&A section on our blog just for professionals. A natural extension of that page seems to be the idea of doing training DVDs. So, I'm wondering how many people would be interested in some sort of training DVD if we were to do one, and if you would be interested, what sorts of things would you be interested in seeing? DVD 1 idea: I like the idea of doing a same-day edit training DVD that would take you through the workflow on the day of the wedding, you could see footage of us creating it, the reactions of the crowd, as well as a ton of tips here and there that we have learned through experience. DVD 2 idea: Another idea was to do one based on love stories. It would walk you through how we do our lighting, how we actually interview people, our list of questions, some out-takes of us actually interviewing them and responding to their comments, and then some ideas and footage of our love story footage portions and how we work those. This would also have a bunch of tips that we have learned through years of doing these, as well as several samples from start to finish. The love story DVD would be a perfect compliment to the SDE DVD, and especially as we sell those as a package and I think they work so well together, we could add in a little feature about marketing them together. DVD 3 idea: An easier training DVD to make, and probably something with a wider appeal, would be one based on the special tools we use, the value they add to our productions, as well as shots of us using them and the footage we get from them. I would probably focus this one on our crane, steadicam, and 35mm adapters, while possibly going to the Canon A1 in specific and how certain cams (A1 vs H1 vs HV20) work with certain tools and the custom presets we use. DVD 4 idea: Our last idea would be a much simpler one, and would basically be a behind-the-scenes look at how we shoot a wedding, how we intereact with couples, setup (or don't setup) shots, as well as the final product they received. This would include a full wedding video from start to finish as the couple received it as well as a bunch of footage and commentary of us actualy shooting that wedding. For pricing, we were thinking in the $2-300 range depending on which DVD it is. That would be based on the amount of time we would need to put into these to make them as good and as helpful as I think they can be, as well as the info itself that we would be providing. If we were to do any of these, we would start shooting these soon and hope to release them in the early new year. These would be geared more towards middle to advanced users, but I think they would benefit almost anybody. These would NOT discuss things like white balance, exposure, unless it was some sort of tip or trick in a certain situation. We would really appreciate knowing how many people might be interested, any other comments and suggestions, as well as the certain areas ideas you would most be interested in seeing. Thanks for your time if you made it all the way through this. Patrick www.still-motion.ca |
Patrick:
Good idea. I would lean toward special techniques in using the equipment, camera settings, post production image enhancements, etc.. Thanks, John |
Patrick - love the ideas. maybe a section on more business aspects. I am know that I want to have a studio space and it not be in my house but can't justify it without sharing the space with a photographer possibly. And, how do you sell packages...do you only work with your photographer or will you do weddings where still-motions photographer has not been booked but the video has been? I don't think this would make much of a dvd but a decent blog entry at least.
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i'm not in a minority when i say you're stuff (ok, and Jason Magbanua's) is the best i've personally seen, and i would absolutely love to hear you've made $$$ out of training DVDs coz u deserve it
BUT DVD idea 2 for example: shame to think your distinctive arty LS 'look' is gonna be potentially mimmicked by all who buy it. you'd be giving away tips on your best-stuff! :) |
I'm a big fan Patrick. Would love to see any of the DVDs you suggest. My order of march would be: 2,1,4,3
Would also be interested in a detailed look at your post production work flow, should you care to share, with extra interest if, perchance, you edit in Vegas. |
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Thanks again for the thoughts. I'll wait for some more ideas and then post back with some of our comments. Patrick |
I agree with Patrick - you also have to consider that many of us live no where near each other and that we aren't really too much of a threat for competition. I know that we all offer the ability to travel but if a B & G want you to come to them, then that means that they have hopefully already searched for someone in their area and not found what they are looking for. And, I really hate when you ask someone in any profession how they did something and they give you some answer like..."if tell you how then what makes me so special" type thing. If you are so worried about loosing business from this one thing you do then you really should be worried. Helping others along can never be bad business and hopefully it could mean raising the bar for wedding videographers.....time to set the professionals aside from the amateurs that are keeping this industry down
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I look at training/tutorials like this....
If my local competition gets ahold of how my workflow is, primarily in post, then there is a smaller gap in how much better I am, and then they to can peddle the same technics I have and the possibilities to loose clients gets bigger. However, if you need some help with post production exporting, and DVD Studio Pro for Canadian Videos, get in touch with me. My strong points are DVDSP, Comp 3, and Shake. |
Thanks for the comments guys but lets try and keep this related to my original question. There are some very good points there about training DVDs in general, but for now, I'm really interested in how many people might be interested in the ideas I put down for training DVDs we have been thinking of.
Patrick |
I like the ideas, but think the pricing is too high. There are lots of tutorial/training DVDs out and something in the price range of 2-3 hundred would get you 2-3 DVDs not just one.
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All great ideas
Hi Patrick. I would love to see actually all of the training that you mentioned. We are fairly new to this and we don't do a high volume yet, so the pricing you mentioned would probably put us out of the market for now. If you want to reach a wider range of people, I think $100/each would be ideal. I know you'd have to put a lot of time and work into this though, so I also understand why you're considering this pricing. Just thought I'd give you perspective from someone who is newer and more limited on budget. Thank you for sharing your ideas!
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Hey Patrick,
I think you might want to really think about why someone might want a training DVD. Is it to improve what they are already doing? Is it to completely change their business model? Is it to get a few cool tricks to add something new? Because some of your ideas would involve changing a business model, even though that might not have occurred to you. For example, training on using a crane and steadicam. Well, only high end clients here are even going for two regular cameras, never mind something so 'esoteric' as a crane. I'm not going to watch your DVD, buy a crane and start bringing it along just for the hell of it. You need to sell a higher end package for it. So I think a very valuable training DVD would be on how to move up to a higher end clientele. What did you have to do? How to set yourself apart? What new product can you offer that can add value (eg. love story). How to sell the idea of having things like cranes and steadicams. Or perhaps, you could target DVD's to certain markets. Okay, so you have to work with one camera. How can we make that better? You are working with two cameras. What is the best way to handle the shoot? I suppose it looks like I'm leaning towards your idea number 4. I think a DVD on tips and tricks would also be valuable. The Von Lankens seem to be successful with training DVDs. You might want to check out what they are doing. Your stuff is so good, that I'm sure you would give them a run for their money... Cheers, Vito |
Hey Patrick,
I like DVD idea #4. I would really like to see how you and the crew interacted with the couple and in a sense see what you're doing and how your finished product turned out (I haven't seen a full production from you yet, and would actually like to). It would be nice if it was at a lower cost though. I do agree $100 would be the magic number, but that's up to you and the company. Monday |
Training DVDs
Patrick,
I am always interested in good training materials and your work is very impressive. Although how you did certain camera moves and editing are very interesting, I would also be interested in what motivates you in terms of deciding what to capture - especially when time is at a premium. As a beginner I like to see others work and while it is tempting to copy a style it is more rewarding to develop your own. I am a single camera operation so information on how to tape a wedding with one cam would be beneficial. The price might be a little high, but if the content is there and it is extensive enoght then it is another business expense and to me would be worth every penny. Thanks Jim |
Patrick,
I too am a big fan of your work (didn't I see some of your stuff on Digg?). Although I probably would not spend $2-300, #4 would seem to be the most useful. I always like seeing your stuff and try to use it to make my own stuff better. Thanks! |
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Sorry guys i wasn't saying don't do it by all means, it was sort of a joke the way i said it...i share ideas ALL the time, i get alot of emails out the blue asking me how i did this, how i did that, and i know how we all like to share information, the main reason why we use this forum for a start
and i agree, it's actually more the creative eye behind the technical side which makes us each different anyway. that's something that a DVD or workshop can't easily teach. i'm not sure what to say about the prices though: make it cheaper, and you'll no doubt sell hundreds...keep it at $2-300, and you'll sell to a more serious and select market..i've seen in the past on this forum some heavily-priced DVDs and 'workshops', and there's every reason why Patrick should be charging the same or more something i'd like to see on the DVD is how you cope with people who aren't willing to do the sort of shots we normally see from you Patrick. and how you cope in places with poor audio/lighting/weather etc etc. |
Hi Patrick,
First - have just visited your site and your work is genuinely beautiful and inspiring, so well done indeed. Straight away I'm interested in finding out how you acheive those results, and would love to get my hands on a DVD explaining how. Second - I would vote for option 4 "DVD 4 idea: Our last idea would be a much simpler one, and would basically be a behind-the-scenes look at how we shoot a wedding, how we intereact with couples, setup (or don't setup) shots, as well as the final product they received. This would include a full wedding video from start to finish as the couple received it as well as a bunch of footage and commentary of us actualy shooting that wedding." I agree with your idea of bypassing the basics and aiming for intermediary to advanced customers. Personaly I'd like to see the process from the beginning. Starting with your overall philosophy on the concept - "Wedding Videography", then maybe how you introduce the couples to your techniques, how you would deal with any concerns they might have. How do you plan a shoot, is it extensive preparation involving pre-shoot location visits and scouting, or do you just bring all the equipment and follow the ebb and flow of the day? What do you look for when sourcing equipment? Definitely it would be interesting to see a shot, or sequence of shots from a fly on the wall, warts and all, perspective, then immediately cut to how it looks on the final DVD. Lots of tips/tricks you've developed over the years would be excellent. Approach to problem dark-shoots. Don't forget audio, and editing. Price of $200 - $300... I think you'd need to offer quite an in-depth package to hit the $300 mark. Perhaps offer it as a series of 2 DVD's, each concentrating on a specific aspect of your work. Buy them individualy for $x buy both for €x +1/2? I guess it depends on what's in them. Thirdly - I'm with Adam on this - videographers have traditionaly had a lousy reputation in general with brides, thanks to far too many chancers jumping in with inferior equipment and inferior knowledge - then handing over inferior results for quick money. This is a constant problem for those of us who are prepared to put in the extra time and energy to make a difference and raise this profession to a new level. If there is a tidal shift of higher performance over the next few years, with the help of people like Patrick sharing their ideas, then all the boats in the harbour rise, it's good for everyone, and maybe we can start to get the credit we deserve. |
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i share and take on tips ALL the time, (yep, even with local videographers) like we all do on here. hell, i didn't even know what a Love Story was 1.5yrs ago, LOL! |
I like the idea for DVD #4. I would love to have the others as well, but they are probably not as important as #4 for me.
Also, I agree with those that think your price point is probably too high. There are lots of other training materials out there in the $100/DVD range, and unless someone knows you personally I don't think they'll pay 3 times that amount. To be perfectly honest, I've purchased training materials in the past and have mostly been dissapointed with the lack of real information. So I'm somewhat jaded towards training materials, and I imagine there are plenty of others in the same position. With that said, it's much easier to justify spending $100-150 on a training DVD than $300, considering you don't know how useful it will be for you. |
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I'd like to chime in here..
#1) Patrick, I *love* your stuff. Nobody does it better. I sure hope the people you produce for realize how lucky they are to have you and your crew working their special day. #2) I too would probably have the most interest in disc #4, but the others have interest as well. Maybe #3 next. #3) I do agree the $200 - $300 price point is probably out of the reach of the majority of your rather "smallish" potential client list (no offense to the business, it just isn't that large...really). Consider also the fact you'll likely be catering a little more towards a newer crowd in the market rather than people who have built up lots of experience in this industry. That market is even less funded. You seem to be at the higher end of your market in what you charge for what you do now, this makes a lot of sense considering the downsides of the wedding videography business (no repeat customers, no multiple purchases for the one product). Getting into the video training/distribution business is a 180 degree different animal. I'm thinking a price point of around $89/ea or $299 for all four makes more sense. Please, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that the value of what you produce isn't worth $300 per disk. I simply believe you will sell 3-4 times as many at this price point and, in the end, make more money. Also consider your forums of distribution. Obviously you'll have it for sale on either your exisiting website or a new website, but while this can be successfull in itself nothing can move product than larger merchandising companies or chains. Wholesaling your video's out for 20-30% less and offering drop shipping at no charge might seem like you are really giving it away, but the volume could easily make up for it and I think what you might be looking for here is widespread adoption as your video as the "industry standard" to learning how to shoot video's. Don't underestimate the power of volume as this market is relatively small and word of mouth goes a long way in this business. Your stuff is great, I have NO doubt you'll create a DVD series that offers great value to the end user. Remember, unlike a wedding video where you don't really have the opportunity of repeat business and you only earn of what you do, one time. A DVD series like this is creating once and duplication costs are dirt cheap. Time is also on your side because this material is not likely to be dated anytime soon - weddings have and in our lifetimes likely will remain essentially the same. Video equipment will change, but not so much that it will require a complete redo of the video series. Just think, selling 5,000 discs a year at $50/ea is a quarter of a million dollars with a cost of virtually zero. :) Lastly... Getting a large following and trust relationship with the market and also strong inroads with distributors will make future videos you do that much easier. Oh, and the demand for your existing business will likely increase as well... Lot's of good to be had here... Jon |
Has anything ever happened on this, did you make the training DVDs and are you selling them?
Bill |
We haven't started production yet as we are still brainstorming and seeing exactly where we want to go. The problem is that I feel we could put a lot of really valuable information on a training DVD from basic to advanced training, tis and tricks, as well as a really solid business side to things- when I put that all together though it is surely something we would want to charge much more than other training DVDs due to the time to create them and how much more involved I think we can go with this. No matter how much I feel we can teach in a DVD and really help a company grow, I don't think many people would really be interested in the $599 range.
On the other hand, we are considering doing a much simpler more of behind-the-scenes feature in the near future that shows a lot of the advanced tools we use, how we get specific shots, the related footage out of the camera and after grading, as well as how we then market these things. I could see this being much closer to $199. Patrick |
That would be something I would pre order immediately! Great to hear you didn't scrap the idea.
Great work on the California shoot by the way. How did you manage with Customs and gear. Don't be afraid to pm me your secrets. ;0 |
Training materials
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My other purchase was some of the Van Loken's discs (used) which I did find interesting, but there was no way I was going to buy it for $100 a disc. The price to valeu ratio is too much of an unknown to risk that much. Also, I find the training discs to be generally short. 45 minutes. Just didn't feel like the pace (generally very slow) covered much territory for 45 minutes. #4 is of highest interest for me (mainly because no one asks about same day edits here so there is no market) followed by 2 & 3. I would love to watch #3, but since you shoot with gear so far above what I have access to, it would be a purely theoretical experience. Don't get me wrong, that might be the one that interests me the most, but I have no way to implement any of that, even if business doubles in the next year (which it already has from last year). |
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You should host some seminars at your studio for the higher end option. The instructional DVD or download could be skill specific: Steadicam, 35mm adapter, HD workflow, Color grading, etc. -John |
There are two things to consider here ... what would benefit Patrick best in terms of sales ... and what would benefit the rest of us best in terms of content.
In terms of sales, I don't know if marketing a beginner/intermediate DVD set or an intermediate/advanced DVD set is going to make more money. Sorry. In terms of what I'd like to see, an intermediate/advanced DVD set I think is a better option. There are countless training DVD's already out there for the beginner. Granted, most of them aren't that great, but I honestly think it's a waste of Patrick's talent and knowledge to put out something for beginners. Patrick, I think you're much more valuable to all of the intermediate level videographers that are around (I include myself here). For us there is virtually nothing worth paying money for. Just my thoughts. |
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I'm glad you mentioned the in-studio seminar as it is certainly something I have been considering. Taking into account the cost of flights and accommodations though, it would be a rather expensive workshop as well and though I have absolutely no doubt that the value would be there many time over, I don't know how many people would willing to take that leap. I think over the next while we will compile some solid options regarding seminars, training DVDs, content and fees and post it up on our blog, as well as here, to see how many people would be interested in either. We have refined what we want to offer by quite a bit so I can be much more detailed this time around. Patrick |
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-John |
Please allow me to encourage you to go along with the DVDs. If you sell them at $100 a pop, I promise I'd buy all 4!
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I would be interested in a tutorial of how to find fresh music that are appropriate for a wedding video.
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Patrick,
If you're looking for a gauge of interest, look no further than the number of people who have looked at your post. I'd say 1,200 to 1,500 is a pretty decent number of interested people. Maybe you should create a more expensive product much as you have with your wedding videos. Make it good enough and different enough and people will come up with the money to watch. Seems that you've done well not doing things cheaply and cutting corners. Just a thought. |
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Hey Patrick,
Love the idea of some Still Motion instructional DVDs. My wife always says next time we go the the states or Canada we'd be happy to carry your bags and learn from you guys. The four DVD ideas you list are great - and I'd defintely want to purchase them. Other areas that might be of interest: - How you market and brand yourselves to your clients - How you set yourself apart from your competition - i.e. aside from the obvious quality of your work - Other business tips/advice etc ... I find that from a technical aspect (filming techniques, colour grading, 35mm adapters, steadicam etc ... ) one can learn heaps just from watching the awesome work that guys like you and Jason Magbanua and others are producing - or from reading this forum - and then practicing, experimenting and implementing it into our own work. But, it is often the behind the scenes of running a successful business that doesn't get much attention. No point in having the most awesome footage or steadicam technique if you've got no clients to offer it to. That's what I'd want to pick your brain about anyway. Cheers, Matthew. |
The thing with seminars is that when it comes to high-end wedding videography, you need to work with a "crew", meaning multiple people representing a studio and this group has to know each other well and be familiar with each others' shooting habits/styles.
So when we say seminar, we're talking a format that needs to accommodate multiple people from each studio and multiple studios.. that's a lot of people from the instructors' perspective and a lot of cost to attend from the clients' perspective. Otherwise, one person by himself can hardly apply his new found knowledge at the seminar with strangers he just met. Seminars in the wedding photography world works much better because one person + bag of gear + hired model for the day are all that's needed to engage fully with the seminar and apply the new knowledge. |
I would most definitely purchase all 4 for a package price. Out of your 4 ideas, number 4 would interest me the most.
The write off alone is worth it ;), save for the information that will allow you to cost just that much more than your competition if you learn something different than your local market. If you're going to have a less expensive option, please still do the 4 disc set. Like mentioned earlier, you do have a demand. Maybe an introductory offer price and then raise it after that period. If you sold the package as a set for $400 and only sold a 1/4 of the viewers of this thread, that's still some nice change ;). |
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