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Wedding / Event Videography Techniques
Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...

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Old June 12th, 2008, 12:35 PM   #16
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I like that look Garrett.

That was shot in 24f? 1/48th? on the A1 and HV30(Cine mode or Cinema Mode)?

Do you happen to remember your exact HV20 settings that I could use as a starting point for setup?

I was concidering using 24f with both cams but wasnt sue how it would handle all the movement. After seeing that it looked pretty good. I doubt I will see that quick of action at the dance recital.

Last edited by Adam Slaght; June 12th, 2008 at 01:15 PM.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 02:30 PM   #17
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That was shot in 24F on the A1 and 24p on the HV20. I used the Cine Mode program set on the HV20 and the PANALOOK2 preset on the A1. Unfortunately I don't remember what the exact setting were on the HV20. I manually set the exposure and ensured I had the ability to set 0 gain using the light in front of the lens trick to set the exposure start points. Cine Mode tends to favor changing the Shutter speed so it was a little tricky to make sure I kept the shutter speed up at 1/48th.

I manually focused the HV20 to about the half way point on the stage.

I Cineform to pull into Sony Vegas then do all my post in Vegas (including using their rendering engines).

I don't think you'd see that quick of action in dances either. This last recital I'm working on now I did shoot in 60i just to see what it would look like. There is a "crisper" look but it does have that "news at 11" look to it. I prefer the look of 24 frames but it is totally an artistic choice. I also receive a lot of comments from parents asking why my video "looks" so different than their "palm cam" recordings. They seem to associate the look of 24 frames with a more professional look.

And another huge advantage is that you use less space on the disc with 24 vs 30 fps.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 04:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Garrett Low View Post
If the studio is doing more than one show shoot every show then mix the best performances/shots from the shows to make one performance. The studio I shot for in this last show did a total of 4 shows with most numbers in all four shows. In every show there were performance goofs and or technical glitches. By covering all shows I can produce what appears to be a show that went off without any problems.
This really depends on the needs of the people you are shooting for. Many profession dance clients can't use edited tapes because the grant providers/venues might become suspicious that the troupe is unable to actually pull off a decent performance. That's the same reason that music venues hate music videos when they are trying to see if a band is able to do a decent show. In the past I have shot several performances single camera and tried to edit them together but I was surprised how different each performance would turn out to be from cues to placement of dancers on the stage. I learned to tape the performances from different angles each day so when I edited, the change in perspective covered up most of the obvious differences. Shooting with multiple cameras during one or two performances is very workable when editing.

Another post about releases touches on an important issue regarding releases. The school should take care of this since the videographer is in effect working for the school.

Another important issue is how the finished product gets around. I was always approached by parents about copies, never about releases. I defered to whomever hired me but I found out that one school would never release copies to the parents! Which was odd since the school in question would not allow other video cameras during performances. One performance at this school, to my surprise, had the daughter of one of my middle school teachers performing! He wanted a copy for her college application and a dance scholarship. Figuring nothing wrong with this and with fond memories of his class 20 years before, I made a copy and gave it to him a week later. That was a big mistake if avoiding screaming phone calls was my main objective in life. That's when I found out that the school hoarded the finished tapes and never gave out copies. The students had one time to watch the tape played back before it went into storage never to be seen again. Make a deal with the school where you can distribute copies for a small fee to cover DVD blanks and postage.

I'm sure parents would love edited dance performances of their children.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 07:09 PM   #19
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Hi William,

You're right about making sure you know the needs of the client. I was talking about the times when one would be shooting specifically for sale and distribution of the show for entertainment and memories. I usually negotiate a minimum up front amount for a given number of DVD's (essentially the studio makes an upfront purchase of a minimum number of DVD's) then I have a set amount for each additional DVD needed. Then after the get all their orders they can let me know if they need more copies. It's basically a set up where I am the production and distribution company for the DVD and the studio is purchasing them at a wholesale price. I retain the rights to distribute further copies through other channels if I wish to. Sometimes I will have a clause that prevents me from selling to anyone other than the studio for a set time but I have not yet had to fully relinquish rights to distribute indefinately.

I have also done specific tapings for auditions and portfolio work. Most of the time these shoots have very specific requirements. The last one I did had to be one continuous take, no edits and no effects. Basically it had to come off the camera, onto a DVD and sent out.

The key is to know ahead of time what the product will be used for. A lot of your post brings up a good point about communication and planning. This has been one of the biggest lessons I've learned. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if I don't feel like there is good communication between me and a perspective client it probably will not be worth trying to work with them. Also, if I'm asked to do a shoot and given no time to plan and prepare it's probably gong to turn out crappy. I'm just not good enough to just unload, set up, and shoot and get a good end product. I'll spend hours in post and never be happy with what I finally get.

I just read your original post William and you bring up a great point about keeping an eye out for entering dancers. I've made the mistake of becoming transfixed looking into the VF and so focused on what I was seeing that I didn't notice that a whole group of other dancers entered the stage. just another one of my brain fade moments.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 07:25 PM   #20
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This is a great topic, but it really belongs in our Event Videography forum (moved from Sony HD1000).

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Old June 13th, 2008, 10:44 AM   #21
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This will be my first shot and edit using 24f/p, if i choose to go that route. I use Premier Pro CS3 for editing.

Tonight at the rehersal I plan on test shooting with A1 in 24p and the Hv30 60i Cine Mode and play with settings on the 30. Then do some test editing before the performances tomorrow.
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Old June 13th, 2008, 12:10 PM   #22
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If you're going to shoot 24F on the A1 you should set the HV30 to 24p and use Cine Mode. I think that is what is considered Cinema Mode in the manual. In any case mixing frame rates between the HV30 (60i) and the A1 (24F) would prove difficult. I'm not sure with Adobe what tools are out there to pull down 24p form the HV30 but I do know that Cineform has one specifically for Adobe. You'll need something like that to work with the 24p footage due to the pull down. It really isn't that hard but does take some getting use to. You can take the 60i footage and convet it to progressive 24 frames but from what I've seen and tried that doesn't look very good.

There are a lot of good posts on here on different tools to use with the HV20/HV30 24p footage.

Good luck and let me know how things turn out.
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Old June 13th, 2008, 12:21 PM   #23
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Garrett, I am only going to be shooting the different rates at the rehersal to check out the looks of the 24p vs 60i. I dont want the headache of mixing rates right now.

After doing some reading on here and other forums. I feel I need to do some testing with 24p/f before I use it on a paying project.

So, I think for this shot I will be using HDV 60i on both cams.
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