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Old October 9th, 2008, 02:06 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Travis Cossel View Post
but in our market none of my brides know anything about "well known" videographers.
The only "well known" videographers in the Belgian weddingvideomarket are the ones that are really cheap :) (that was not intended as a joke but it's sadly true)

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Originally Posted by Travis Cossel View Post
Wow, I'm amazed that people are willing to pay you guys to just do an SDE
I really envy guys like Patrick who not only can do creative stuff like that but are able to get clients to pay that much for it. In my country it's virtually impossible to do this. People do spend quite a lot on photography here but video, no way.
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Old October 9th, 2008, 02:27 AM   #17
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I completely understand. I think Patrick and the Still-Motion team are totally awesome, but it IS frustrating that I can't seem to find the types of clients they are. I often have to work just to get people to go for all-day coverage .. and no one ever really seems interested in any other "extras".

Case in point, I had a wedding this past summer that was HUGE. They spent something like $50,000-60,000 on dinner for the guests ($100/plate and 500-600 guests), and spent money like crazy on all sorts of other things, but they wouldn't even book MY top package, which was less than $4,000. More power to Patrick and his team, but I just don't get how they do it sometimes. d:-/
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Old October 9th, 2008, 08:56 PM   #18
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My thoughts are this ... Patrick and the StillMotion team have demonstrated to their brides, without a shadow of doubt, the value of wedding videography. They've done this by consistently delivering a high quality product and charging what it's actually worth.

Recently, I was cruising around the Wedding Bee forum searching for comments or posts about wedding videography. As I find on most bridal forums, a lot of the brides were saying not to bother getting a wedding videographer, or get a cheap one for $1,000, why spend $1,500 on a dodgy wedding video when you could spend that money elsewhere etc ... Then I stumbled upon this post from one of the forum moderators who'd got StillMotion to do her video - The Milkshakes’ Same Day Edit Weddingbee The Wedding Blog

Almost 100 comments from brides blown away by the video ... Do a search for StillMotion on Wedding Bee ... there's a lot to learn from what the brides are saying. Patrick and his team have clearly demonstrated to brides the value of what they do.

Something I read recently mentioned that there's no such thing as "I can't afford it". In truth it's actually "I don't value it enough to sacrifice for it or to re-arrange my life to get it". Think about it ... if you place a high enough value on something you will figure out how to get it. You'll save like crazy or get a loan etc ...

As a relative newcomer to the wedding videography industry I'm quite disheartened by the overall state of the industry, especially when it comes to pricing. Over the years, and I'm speaking in general terms here, the industry as a whole has not effectively educated brides about the value of wedding videography. That's ultimately what it boils down to ... Does a potential bride value wedding videography enough to part with her hard earned money?

My wife is a photographer and we often talk about this topic. She says "I don't understand why wedding videography costs less than wedding photography? You guys put in so many more hours on the day, way more hours in post-production, your camera gear costs so much more, your editing computers and software cost more, you need way more hard drive space and backup drives etc... etc ...."

There are heaps of photographers who charge $100+ per page in a wedding album. How many videographers are even charging $100 per hour for their services? How can we expect brides to value what we do when through our pricing we're often not even valuing our own time and talents?
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Old October 9th, 2008, 09:19 PM   #19
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What a great response for Still-Motion, and interesting that there was another bride on there who was using them. I checked out the forums on The Knot for my city a few weeks ago, and they were basically dead. Brides just seem to have a different mindset here .. not all of them .. but most of them.

I would dare say I'm offering the best product at the highest price in my market, and I have a very good presentation when I meet with brides. But I'm obviously not booking like Still-Motion does. People think Save the Dates and whatnot are really cool, but when it comes to paying they lose interest.

I totally agree that there's really no such thing as "We can't afford that." But if the priority isn't there, you have to generate it for them. So far, it's been pretty hard to do that.
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Old October 9th, 2008, 09:25 PM   #20
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Matt you've hit it right on the head.

One thing I like to add about why a lot of people don't see the value is because what our product is compared to, a photographer can take a shot and once printed it looks like the stuff in a gallery or an expensive magazine but us videographers would have not the easiest time to make the product look like a movie which is essentially what someone who has no idea can see the value in. Stillmotion do shoot stuff that does look like a movie so for them even though they are educating the clients they are also producing a product that the potential client is blown away by so its easier to up sell and say, not only we produce that level of production but also we can give it to you on the same day!!

At this stage can't do SDE's but talking to married couples a lot of them actually have said to me that would have been awesome at their wedding, so it is simply a matter of educating and if they can see the value in it they'll go for it.
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Old October 9th, 2008, 09:31 PM   #21
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Sde

For our SDE's we charge $2,000 that includes projector/projection screen. Are packages range from $4,000 to $9,000 without the extra's like steadicam, dof and super 8. We like still-motion only shoot one venue a day. I am a firm believer that FINALLY videographer's are getting paid what they deserve! We actually now offer a internet recap that clients get 2 days after their wedding. That allows us for more time at half the price and a lot less stress. Especially when you are shooting weddings in NY/Westchester!

Here's a internet recap we just produced.

http://vimeo.com/1908846

Moving Pictures, Cinematic Wedding Videography

Last edited by David Venturini; October 9th, 2008 at 09:35 PM. Reason: wrong link, sorry
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Old October 9th, 2008, 10:46 PM   #22
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As a relative newcomer to the wedding videography industry I'm quite disheartened by the overall state of the industry, especially when it comes to pricing. Over the years, and I'm speaking in general terms here, the industry as a whole has not effectively educated brides about the value of wedding videography. That's ultimately what it boils down to ... Does a potential bride value wedding videography enough to part with her hard earned money?

There are heaps of photographers who charge $100+ per page in a wedding album. How many videographers are even charging $100 per hour for their services? How can we expect brides to value what we do when through our pricing we're often not even valuing our own time and talents?
This is a very tough topic to deal with because while I agree with your points 100% I'm afraid that I'd be out of business in less than a year if I charged what I should for a wedding. Since this is my full time job, it's tough to work up the courage to double my prices tomorrow, especially since brides have been conditioned to pay lowish prices. If it backfired then I'd be in big trouble and I'd have to start delivering pizzas or something to make ends meet. Sometimes I wonder if it would be easier to drop off the radar for a year and pop back up with a new name, new branding, and new prices.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 01:42 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Travis Cossel View Post
I totally agree that there's really no such thing as "We can't afford that." But if the priority isn't there, you have to generate it for them. So far, it's been pretty hard to do that.
Here you might find a client who's willing to pay for it but to make a living out of it, forget it, it all comes down to finding clients paying for it once you have established yourself as a high quality videographer but belgium is too small for that. It's very clearly that what I can read from here that brides across the pond have much bigger budgets then in my country. As David stated packages between $4,000 to $9,000 would be out of the question here. Here they would find 1000 dollar more then enough for a wedding dvd and even then a lot are looking for cheaper ones! It's really ridiculous but that's the way it is here. Most just want a simple coverage, nothing fancy and especially nothing expensive.
The only way for me to survive in this business is to do eventvideography as well were I charge per camera and editing hour.

Last edited by Noa Put; October 10th, 2008 at 05:50 AM.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 08:16 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ebenezer View Post
As a relative newcomer to the wedding videography industry I'm quite disheartened by the overall state of the industry, especially when it comes to pricing. Over the years, and I'm speaking in general terms here, the industry as a whole has not effectively educated brides about the value of wedding videography. That's ultimately what it boils down to ... Does a potential bride value wedding videography enough to part with her hard earned money?

My wife is a photographer and we often talk about this topic. She says "I don't understand why wedding videography costs less than wedding photography? You guys put in so many more hours on the day, way more hours in post-production, your camera gear costs so much more, your editing computers and software cost more, you need way more hard drive space and backup drives etc... etc ...."

There are heaps of photographers who charge $100+ per page in a wedding album. How many videographers are even charging $100 per hour for their services? How can we expect brides to value what we do when through our pricing we're often not even valuing our own time and talents?
I agree completely with what Matt is saying. But, I would go one step further and say that not only is it a lack of education with brides and the value of videography, but as videographers ourselves I think we can sometimes take our job as seriously and with as much integrity as our industry reputation would dictate. In other words, many times we can act and show work that looks more like a budget video than anything else. Working with photographers here in the studio, we really use them as a role model for a successful way to create imagery, work with it in post, and present it to the couple afterwards. Each step involves a lot more thinking and consistency as we move forward, and I think that is what we can lack as an industry and it really pulls us down.

Look at the the better photographers- things like composition, white balance, exposure, contrast, and post-work are generally quite good. Do the same exercise with the better videographers and there are so many more of these fundamental issues. I believe that the reason we have so many more of these fundamental issues in our work is the same reason that we get less respect, are in less demand, and most often get paid less.

P.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 08:34 AM   #25
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I think it's all about getting a break in the high end market. We have a client that rents XDCam/Digi Betas and all he does is Wedding Videography, he charges $ 10K per wedding. I have seen his work and I can attest that half of the posters here will blow him away, not even close to Still Motion. He books 40 weddings a year. I think it's all about marketing, if you charge $ 10K people would think 2 things 1. your expensive or 2. you must be really good in what you do.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 09:22 AM   #26
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1. your expensive or 2. you must be really good in what you do.
if you live in an area were you know people have such mega budgets you are right, if they pay 10k they sure want to see a demo but what do they know, we know the difference but clients don't look at the technical details. It's a general thought that when it's expensive it must be good and when it's not there must be something wrong. Especially if he arrives with a big shoulder cam that sure impresses people.

Last week I had a wedding were a friend filmed the bachelor party and edited in pinnacle studio and it was filled with cheesy transition effects, it was shaky all over the place and they all loved it when it was shown in the evening. Again prove that content is much more important then quality for a lot of people and with each transition effect everybody was going "ooh" or "aah". No 35mm adapter, no glidecam, no hdv, terrible sound...
try to explain to the couple you can do much better but it will cost them 1000+ taking into consideration their friend did it for free.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 09:57 AM   #27
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Hi Travis

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I totally agree that there's really no such thing as "We can't afford that." But if the priority isn't there, you have to generate it for them. So far, it's been pretty hard to do that.
Well said. I feel like I'm fighting 20 years of mediocrity. That's why the priority to cut the videographer into a larger chunk of the budget isn't there. They need to see it before they change their minds.

I do SDE's and next day edits when I can, where I can, whenever I can - whether I get paid for it or not. I may I spend 5 or 6 hours to get a highlights out early in the week after the wedding but it guarantees me 300-400 unique visitors who view the online movie. Or I may capture footage all day long and edit together a 2 minute highlight during the reception that I simply loop on the laptop in a conspicuous place. Crowds form and people rush off to get someone because 'you have to see this!'. Getting something worth paying for in to as many eyeballs as possible is the key. The way to do that is capitalize on getting something out there as fast as possible to take advantage of the excitement of the wedding day that is still palpable. Its an opportunity I can't pass up. The education aspect has to come from personal experience. Its not about getting them to come in and sit with you so you can explain it or reading about it in a bride's magazine. They need to experience it and then socialize about it - hear about from friends - talk about it when they're out. When they come to you they're pre-sold. They want to tell their friends they also got so-and-so to cover their wedding. Smiles and hugs. But it all has to happen at or right after the wedding.

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Old October 10th, 2008, 12:58 PM   #28
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I believe that the reason we have so many more of these fundamental issues in our work is the same reason that we get less respect, are in less demand, and most often get paid less.
I agree that our industry really needs an increase in the quality standard to increase the respect, demand and pay we receive.

However, I also know that in my area brides start off their wedding planning by looking for a photographer, and it isn't because they've seen bad videos. I ask every couple that walks through our doors if they've seen a wedding video before, and probably 75% of them haven't. I really think we're up against history much of the time. Photography has been around much longer than videography, and has been a central part of weddings for a long long time. It really is just as much a tradition to wear a white dress as it is to have a photographer at your wedding.

You certainly can't say the same for videography. I've never attended a wedding as a guest where there wasn't a professional photographer, but I've yet to attend a wedding as a guest where there was a professional videographer. That's just amazing to me.

Brides don't feel this way because they've seen bad videos, they feel this way because photography has just always been a core part of weddings in their minds and in the minds of their parents and in the minds of their grandparents. Videography just doesn't have that kind of history when it comes to weddings, and I don't think it's something we can just overcome with better quality work. I honestly think it's just going to take time, in addition to education, exposure and an increase in quality.

Case in point, my wife and I just met with a couple last week. They were blown away by my work .. absolutely loved it. In fact, it was obvious that they were more impressed with the videography than they were with the photography (they loved the photography too, but I think they were already expecting to love it). Anyways, they booked a $5k package with my wife, but didn't book a videography package.

So my point here is that I blew this couple away with my quality, but at the end of the day it was more of a priority for them to get an awesome photography package, than to get a lesser package and include a videography package. I firmly believe I could have showed them nothing but Still-Motion work and my result would have been the same.

Market attitudes are different around the world. Some markets are trend-setters, and other markets are trend-followers. Some markets are trend-followers, but they take a long time to catch up with trends. I think that's where my market is at. When 3/4 of my couples haven't even ever seen a wedding video, that says a lot.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 01:05 PM   #29
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I do SDE's and next day edits when I can, where I can, whenever I can - whether I get paid for it or not.
I think that's a great plan to get exposure. I would certainly find a way to incorporate it myself if I actually had time to do it on the wedding day. But when you only have 30-60 minutes between the end of the ceremony and the first dance, it makes it basically impossible.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 08:41 AM   #30
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This thread has morphed into an interesting discussion on the state of our industry. I think the reason wedding videos and films aren't appreciated to extent they should be is that the industry as a whole is just coming out of an awkward adolescence into adulthod. It wasn't that long ago that the state of the art technology for wedding videographers involved Super VHS cameras, Video Toasters and finished products on VHS tapes.

No matter what skills we brought to the product, there was only so much we could do. It's the reason I stopped shooting wedding for a long time. It was labor intensive and the end product wasn't rewarding.

Now, with better cameras, editing systems and DVD delivery, the entire game has changed. We know about this because we work it the business. Now, it's time to educate the public.
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