HD Delivery this year

Bryan Daugherty · February 2nd, 2009, 12:00 AM

Perrone - You and I have gone rounds on other threads about the whole HDV vs XDCAM and I don't wish to dig that one up again. Honestly, i agree with you on the quality issue but for me it is still the price. Like many out there, I run my business on a cash basis. I don't like the overhead of loans out there cutting into my profit margin so the short term difference between a Z5u at $4079 and an EX1 at $6099 or EX3 at $8320 is just over the threshold especially if I am in need of 2 (or more) of them. The other big issue WAS the media cost but with the SDHC workaround that is not such an issue anymore which is why I am leaning toward the FX1000 again and planning to move to XDCAM maybe next year when the price difference might be closer to my range. But as far as to the OP, if you have the money go XDCAM, if not find an HDV solution that fits your budget and accept that XDCAM (or another tech yet to be released...2k?,4k? or ???) should be your target.

Perrone Ford · February 2nd, 2009, 12:03 AM

Bryan,

What's your thoughts on the new JVC? Bringing XDCam into the $3500 price range on SDHC?

Bryan Daugherty · February 2nd, 2009, 12:16 AM

I don't really have any thoughts. As yet I haven't seen any first hand footage of the new JVC, I must say I was severely underwhelmed with the HD110-HD200 cameras (granted i thought they would be the holy grail when they first came out), they are nice cameras but I got to tinker with a colleague's at a live event and was surprised about the quality difference between those cams and mine for color, sharpness, etc. ...then again maybe they were in the wrong hands to achieve their potential... but I digress. I am very partial to the SONY line of cams and find the interfaces pretty intuitive from model to model, the colors pleasing, and the detail nice. I find the Canons and JVCs more cumbersome to my shooting style but i have not had a chance to examine the GY-HM100U yet. And in fact my HVR HD1000u just got me big job when the competition was shooting JVC GY-DV5100. Hard to imagine that this $1400 HDV cam beat a $7500 Pro DV cam but the client agreed that my footage was better (both delivered in SD on DVD)

What do you know about the new JVC?

EDIT: Quick note to JVC owners, i am sure you love your camera and get great footage. I have not had good experience with JVC and am loyal to my SONY cam's but JVC would not be in this business if they did not make a good product. So by all means if you shoot JVC in any model and are making a living they are good for you. No disrespect just an opinion.

Vito DeFilippo · February 2nd, 2009, 12:19 AM

Hi again, Perrone,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

If you didn't have to load tapes into a deck to get ready for edit, would your backlog be so high? I mean shooting a 14 hour day means 15 or more hours just to get STARTED on the edit.

I get where you are coming from, but the capturing is not the problem, it's the length of post production.

I find capturing tape no trouble, but I try to streamline as much as possible. I use two computers with external drives, and can capture with one while editing on the other. Before I had two computers, I would just capture during downtime. You can't edit 24 hours a day, so that's lots of capture time.

Quote:

I am also curious if other wedding guys shoot as much.

Personally, I think I shoot less than most. We do a lot of one camera weddings, during which I might produce five tapes. Two camera shoots, 8-10 tapes.

Hope your daughter's wedding goes off without a hitch!

Perrone Ford · February 2nd, 2009, 12:21 AM

Don't know about the cam, but am pretty pleased with the codec. The 1/4" CCDs are disappointing, but for the money...

If they put decent glass on it, I think it competes favorably with the HMC150, and gets past the CMOS issue of the EX1. Put a 35mm adapter and rails on it and you still come out ahead of the EX1 on price, with the same codec, interchangeable lenses, and shooting on factory approved SDHC.

Perrone Ford · February 2nd, 2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

Personally, I think I shoot less than most. We do a lot of one camera weddings, during which I might produce five tapes. Two camera shoots, 8-10 tapes.

OUCH!! Now I see why you guys charge so much!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

Hope your daughter's wedding goes off without a hitch!

Thanks but the odds are zero. Beach wedding in Florida... Springtime. Ever been to Florida in April? :) I might make some money selling raincoats and golf umbrellas!

Lukas Siewior · February 2nd, 2009, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

Personally, I think I shoot less than most. We do a lot of one camera weddings, during which I might produce five tapes. Two camera shoots, 8-10 tapes.

Vitto, 8-10 is normal for me as well. Two cams with 4-5 tapes each. 2nd cam actually goes through less tapes since some moments I just use one camera (i.e. photo session, or preperations).

Tapeless solutions are needed when doing SDE's. Can't imagine capturing 2-3 tapes from two cams just to put together 5 mins vid.

Jason Robinson · February 2nd, 2009, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

OUCH!! Now I see why you guys charge so much!

Thanks but the odds are zero. Beach wedding in Florida... Springtime. Ever been to Florida in April? :) I might make some money selling raincoats and golf umbrellas!

Heh, I lived in Brevard Co for 15 years .... just avoid the 2-5pm afternoon shower time. And then the evening shows. And then the .....

Regarding shooting at weddings, I go through about as much tape as well. My big wedding from last April saw me shoot through 11hrs of footage for 3 cams. Essentially, if something is happening, I'm rolling. I don't roll for just reception "eating" time, but that is almost always a chance to get some good b-roll of tables, decorations, etc, so I'm still rolling. Sure does fill up HDDs fast though.

Philip Gioja · February 2nd, 2009, 04:50 PM

Ok so here's what I'm going to do for my market.

I don't have a lot of free cash, but I'm going to buy a Samsung 32" HDTV (720p) ($500 display model from BH) and an Apple TV ($200 refurb from Apple) right now. I'll test it out and let you know what I think about the Apple TV route. It should look decent on a 32" TV. I know a lot of people have larger TVs but I do have budgetary concerns right now.

I'm going to sit on the Blu-ray option until I have a little more cash flow going. Looks like that Lacie burner with Toast bundled is about $450, Samsung BD player is about $200, plus I didn't realize how insanely expensive the discs are - +/- $15 a piece? The printable ones I saw were about $30/piece. Am I looking in the right place?

I'll be offering both routes as options, and let you know what I learn.

Perrone Ford · February 2nd, 2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Gioja

...plus I didn't realize how insanely expensive the discs are - +/- $15 a piece? The printable ones I saw were about $30/piece. Am I looking in the right place?

No.

Imation Memorex 25GB BLU-RAY Disc Optical Media: Compare Prices, View Price History and Read Reviews at NexTag ($5.31 each)

Memorex BLU-RAY Write Once 4X 25GB BD-R Single Layer Media: Compare Prices, View Price History and Read Reviews at NexTag ($6.57 each)

Amazon.com: Verbatim 96769 25GB 4X Branded Blu-Ray Disc (10pk Spindle Box): Electronics ($7.49 each)

The first 2 options are cheaper than my minisDV tapes and hold 2 hours of HDV material, plus an extras section with a 720p mp4 or VC-1 copy. I put an hour of 1080p HQ EX1 footage on one disk plus a 1080p VC-1, and a 1080p mp4. Try that with tape!

[edit]

Burner:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ray_Drive.html

Nicholas de Kock · February 2nd, 2009, 06:33 PM

I showcase my HD work on a 32" LG with a Western Digital TV. I sell as part of all my packages Blu-Ray discs although I am not currently able to produce Blu-Ray discs. I render my edits in both SD & HD, back-up and store until I am able to deliver in HD. I am not going to pay current prices for Blu-Ray out of principal, it's a rip-off, when prices go down I'll burn all my projects to Blu-ray and have them sent to all my HD clients.

Perrone Ford · February 2nd, 2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholas de Kock

I am not going to pay current prices for Blu-Ray out of principal, it's a rip-off, when prices go down I'll burn all my projects to Blu-ray and have them sent to all my HD clients.

Two questions if I may:

1. At what price per disk will you adopt Blu-Ray?

2. At what price per disk did you adopt DVD?

Lukas Siewior · February 2nd, 2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Two questions if I may:

1. At what price per disk will you adopt Blu-Ray?

2. At what price per disk did you adopt DVD?

at $5 per disk - it's a very cheap solution. Especially that the customer gets only 1 copies of BR.

Perrone Ford · February 2nd, 2009, 07:43 PM

I went poking around some old PC Magazine articles to get a better handle on this Blu-Ray pricing from a historical perspective.

This article sums things up nicely:

DVD+RW: He Who Ships Last, Ships Best - DVD+RW: He Who Ships Last Ships Best - Reviews by PC Magazine

In the winter of 2001, some 6 years after DVD was introduced to US shores, the average recorders were hovering around $650 (Pioneer's was $995 list) and the price of a single layer, single sided DVD blank was $16. We've been able to buy Blu-Ray media for less than half the time, the burners are less 1/3 to 1/2 what DVD burners were by the same period in their history, and the disks are 1/3 the cost of what blank DVDs were at the same period in their history.

I know for some people it will NEVER be good enough. But in historical perspetive, Blu-Ray is KILLING DVD from a price-to-author standpoint when viewed in historical perspective.

Another curious thing, is that DVD+- DL are around $1.50-$2.00 each for 8.5GB. On a per gig basis, Blu-Ray is nearly the same cost or just slightly more. That is incredible when you think about it.

Perrone Ford · February 2nd, 2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukas Siewior

at $5 per disk - it's a very cheap solution. Especially that the customer gets only 1 copies of BR.

Exactly. Tell the customer, that a Blu-Ray copy costs an extra $10 oor $20, take 100-200% profit off the top, and as prices fall, your margin gets bigger. How can you lose?

February 2nd, 2009, 12:00 AM	#61
Bryan Daugherty Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lexington, Ky - USA Posts: 552	Perrone - You and I have gone rounds on other threads about the whole HDV vs XDCAM and I don't wish to dig that one up again. Honestly, i agree with you on the quality issue but for me it is still the price. Like many out there, I run my business on a cash basis. I don't like the overhead of loans out there cutting into my profit margin so the short term difference between a Z5u at $4079 and an EX1 at $6099 or EX3 at $8320 is just over the threshold especially if I am in need of 2 (or more) of them. The other big issue WAS the media cost but with the SDHC workaround that is not such an issue anymore which is why I am leaning toward the FX1000 again and planning to move to XDCAM maybe next year when the price difference might be closer to my range. But as far as to the OP, if you have the money go XDCAM, if not find an HDV solution that fits your budget and accept that XDCAM (or another tech yet to be released...2k?,4k? or ???) should be your target. __________________ 3x-HD1000u - Ikan 8000HD- custom i7 PC - Vegas Pro 13 and 11 64 bit - Premiere Pro CS4 - and a whole mess of other equipment...

February 2nd, 2009, 12:03 AM	#62
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Bryan, What's your thoughts on the new JVC? Bringing XDCam into the $3500 price range on SDHC? __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

February 2nd, 2009, 12:16 AM	#63
Bryan Daugherty Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lexington, Ky - USA Posts: 552	I don't really have any thoughts. As yet I haven't seen any first hand footage of the new JVC, I must say I was severely underwhelmed with the HD110-HD200 cameras (granted i thought they would be the holy grail when they first came out), they are nice cameras but I got to tinker with a colleague's at a live event and was surprised about the quality difference between those cams and mine for color, sharpness, etc. ...then again maybe they were in the wrong hands to achieve their potential... but I digress. I am very partial to the SONY line of cams and find the interfaces pretty intuitive from model to model, the colors pleasing, and the detail nice. I find the Canons and JVCs more cumbersome to my shooting style but i have not had a chance to examine the GY-HM100U yet. And in fact my HVR HD1000u just got me big job when the competition was shooting JVC GY-DV5100. Hard to imagine that this $1400 HDV cam beat a $7500 Pro DV cam but the client agreed that my footage was better (both delivered in SD on DVD) What do you know about the new JVC? EDIT: Quick note to JVC owners, i am sure you love your camera and get great footage. I have not had good experience with JVC and am loyal to my SONY cam's but JVC would not be in this business if they did not make a good product. So by all means if you shoot JVC in any model and are making a living they are good for you. No disrespect just an opinion. __________________ 3x-HD1000u - Ikan 8000HD- custom i7 PC - Vegas Pro 13 and 11 64 bit - Premiere Pro CS4 - and a whole mess of other equipment...

February 2nd, 2009, 12:21 AM	#65
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Don't know about the cam, but am pretty pleased with the codec. The 1/4" CCDs are disappointing, but for the money... If they put decent glass on it, I think it competes favorably with the HMC150, and gets past the CMOS issue of the EX1. Put a 35mm adapter and rails on it and you still come out ahead of the EX1 on price, with the same codec, interchangeable lenses, and shooting on factory approved SDHC. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

February 2nd, 2009, 07:43 PM	#74
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	I went poking around some old PC Magazine articles to get a better handle on this Blu-Ray pricing from a historical perspective. This article sums things up nicely: DVD+RW: He Who Ships Last, Ships Best - DVD+RW: He Who Ships Last Ships Best - Reviews by PC Magazine In the winter of 2001, some 6 years after DVD was introduced to US shores, the average recorders were hovering around $650 (Pioneer's was $995 list) and the price of a single layer, single sided DVD blank was $16. We've been able to buy Blu-Ray media for less than half the time, the burners are less 1/3 to 1/2 what DVD burners were by the same period in their history, and the disks are 1/3 the cost of what blank DVDs were at the same period in their history. I know for some people it will NEVER be good enough. But in historical perspetive, Blu-Ray is KILLING DVD from a price-to-author standpoint when viewed in historical perspective. Another curious thing, is that DVD+- DL are around $1.50-$2.00 each for 8.5GB. On a per gig basis, Blu-Ray is nearly the same cost or just slightly more. That is incredible when you think about it. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

February 2nd, 2009, 04:50 PM	#69
Philip Gioja Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Piper City, IL Posts: 350	Ok so here's what I'm going to do for my market. I don't have a lot of free cash, but I'm going to buy a Samsung 32" HDTV (720p) ($500 display model from BH) and an Apple TV ($200 refurb from Apple) right now. I'll test it out and let you know what I think about the Apple TV route. It should look decent on a 32" TV. I know a lot of people have larger TVs but I do have budgetary concerns right now. I'm going to sit on the Blu-ray option until I have a little more cash flow going. Looks like that Lacie burner with Toast bundled is about $450, Samsung BD player is about $200, plus I didn't realize how insanely expensive the discs are - +/- $15 a piece? The printable ones I saw were about $30/piece. Am I looking in the right place? I'll be offering both routes as options, and let you know what I learn.

February 2nd, 2009, 06:33 PM	#71
Nicholas de Kock Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: KLD, South Africa Posts: 983	I showcase my HD work on a 32" LG with a Western Digital TV. I sell as part of all my packages Blu-Ray discs although I am not currently able to produce Blu-Ray discs. I render my edits in both SD & HD, back-up and store until I am able to deliver in HD. I am not going to pay current prices for Blu-Ray out of principal, it's a rip-off, when prices go down I'll burn all my projects to Blu-ray and have them sent to all my HD clients.