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Old June 6th, 2009, 03:35 PM   #31
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Joel, I agree with the first part of what you said. Don't EVER drop your prices .. just include less. It's hard enough to slowly raise your prices, so you don't want to go backwards.

But as for clients not getting the value, it's not always OUR fault. Some people just have a 'barter mentality'. Sometimes it's part of their culture. They might value what you do, but they're just wired to try and score a deal. I get what you're saying, but it's not always true.
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Old June 7th, 2009, 02:00 AM   #32
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That old perception of Value thing again. I'm there with you, I had a couple choose not to proceed as they were paying $6,000 for photos which blew their budget. I'm sorry but how can it possibly be worth 6 Grand?

We (Videographers) as a collective need to ensure when we give the product to the B & G that they are in absolute awe over it and were very glad they wanted a Video.

Over time as technology improves and our delivery methods improve our services will be seen as more of a priority. We can deliver via DVD, iPod, iPhone, Internet VHS the list goes on.

A Video is an emotional experience, something a photo can't compare with. Don't get me wrong I love great photography but on the whole its like comparing chalk & cheese in my book.

Stay true to your art, constanty stive to improve your work and oneday we will be considered a necessity & not an otpion.

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Old June 7th, 2009, 02:48 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by David Edwards View Post
That old perception of Value thing again. I'm there with you, I had a couple choose not to proceed as they were paying $6,000 for photos which blew their budget. I'm sorry but how can it possibly be worth 6 Grand?

We (Videographers) as a collective need to ensure when we give the product to the B & G that they are in absolute awe over it and were very glad they wanted a Video.

Over time as technology improves and our delivery methods improve our services will be seen as more of a priority. We can deliver via DVD, iPod, iPhone, Internet VHS the list goes on.

A Video is an emotional experience, something a photo can't compare with. Don't get me wrong I love great photography but on the whole its like comparing chalk & cheese in my book.

Stay true to your art, constanty stive to improve your work and oneday we will be considered a necessity & not an otpion.

David Edwards
Drumroll Productions Sydney.
You hit the nail on the head when you say photography and video are like chalk and cheese. This is what we need to be educating couples about, photography and video are different, both of them together tell the full story of their wedding day. The photo vs video mindset doesn't get us anywhere.

But, even though we can deliver our work to every piece of technology around ... that still doesn't rival a photograph. A viewer needs to actively choose to watch a video, by inserting a DVD, opening the file on a computer etc ... A photograph (i.e. on a wall) can be passively enjoyed.

As for photography not being worth $6,000 ... I'll pretend you didn't say that ;)

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Old June 7th, 2009, 07:11 AM   #34
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That's like saying videography will never worth $6000...

but I believe it could and should be if the work is phenomenal.

if you think about it

1 day shoot: 12 hrs @$100/hr = 1200
40 hours editing: 40 hrs @$50/hr = 2000
DVD and cover: $300
Project Management (Service charge you may say) = 20%

$3500 + 20% = $4200

Throw another camera operator and you'll be near $6000 already

This might sound silly for a lot of people but this is what people sort of charge in the corporate world.. not to mention how commercial people charge..

What I'm saying is, $6000 is not a silly number at all..

my 2 millions

Santo
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Old June 7th, 2009, 08:38 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by David Edwards View Post
That old perception of Value thing again. I'm there with you, I had a couple choose not to proceed as they were paying $6,000 for photos which blew their budget. I'm sorry but how can it possibly be worth 6 Grand?
That's simple, it's worth it cause someone is willing to pay it. That's true of anything.

Quote:
A Video is an emotional experience, something a photo can't compare with. Don't get me wrong I love great photography but on the whole its like comparing chalk & cheese in my book.
I can't say I agree with this at all. Both can be emotional experiences all their own neither out weighing the other.

For me, if I only had a set amount to spend on photo or video and had to chose one over the other I'd go with photo every time, but that's just me. Why on earth would I say this? To me photo allows you to assign meaning to it over the years whereas video has it's meaning more or less burned in.

Look at it this way, 30 years later you see a picture of your favorite (now passed) uncle Charlie dancing at your wedding with a big grin on his face and you can remember that moment in any context you'd like, you are allowed to remember or forget at will, you can see the grin and attach any feeling you want with it. With video that same moment is captured but you have all the context surrounding it and you are wacked over the head with the reality that that happy uncle Charlie was sloppy drunk and making an ass of himself. For memories, I'll take photos any day if I had to chose only one.
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Old June 7th, 2009, 08:39 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Susanto Widjaja View Post
That's like saying videography will never worth $6000...

but I believe it could and should be if the work is phenomenal.

if you think about it

1 day shoot: 12 hrs @$100/hr = 1200
40 hours editing: 40 hrs @$50/hr = 2000
DVD and cover: $300
Project Management (Service charge you may say) = 20%

$3500 + 20% = $4200

Throw another camera operator and you'll be near $6000 already

This might sound silly for a lot of people but this is what people sort of charge in the corporate world.. not to mention how commercial people charge..

What I'm saying is, $6000 is not a silly number at all..

my 2 millions

Santo
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Old June 7th, 2009, 11:17 AM   #37
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Ethan, I know the economy is not doing to great, but the brides still want a professional wedding videographer. Here in NJ my starting price is $1800.00 for one camera and my average for a two camera crew is $2900.00. After I raised my prices 3 years ago I thought I will never get book again, but It has being better for me because I am making the same income and less weddings. Once you raise your price you will have a different category of brides, specially you do a great job.
Start your standard package at $2000.00 and you will see the results.
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Old June 7th, 2009, 02:05 PM   #38
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I'm sorry .. but saying photography and videography are like chalk and cheese is just as ignorant as saying no wedding video is worth $2,000 (as a bride on The Knot recently said).

Value is .. and always will be .. in the eye of the beholder. As Ethan pointed out, some people are just more drawn to the art and mystique of photography. Others are more drawn to the art and dynamics of video. Neither is better than the other, and both should command a high price for an outstanding product.

As much as videographers need to elevate their work and raise their prices, we really need to stop spending so much time worrying about how much photographers charge and how much time they spend on a project. It doesn't matter. What matters is how WE are going to elevate the status of OUR product within the wedding industry. Time and energy spent worrying about what photographers are doing is simply time and energy wasted.
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Old June 7th, 2009, 03:35 PM   #39
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In business the old saying is that "if you spend one dollar on something but it doesn't do the job or your not satisfied with the product then you overpaid" so each one of us and every single other videographer in the country that does weddings and event has to emphatically has to do the very best possible job everytime and THEN we as a collective group can raise our prices....OH but wait. Houma La, Boise Id, Tulsa Ok, LA Ca, Miami Fl, Honalulu Hi, New York City Ny,.... Folks PLEASE use some common sense in making a broad statement that we should all charge the same price or one should raise their prices to a certain dollar amount no matter what. Each market dictated by the demographics what one can charge and unless one has the ability of charging in a small market what one can charge in a large market and still get work then more power to you but I haven't seen it happen too often, so what I'm saying is price yourself according to the market you are in do your best work and let the other guy/gal in a different market do the same. I can't say for an absolute certainty but I'd bet the average market pricing in my area is a lot different than it is in Houma LA. I haven't a clue what the average price is there but I do know what it is in my market and that's the only market that I care about.
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Old June 7th, 2009, 04:15 PM   #40
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There are, and always will be the videographers willing to film somones wedding for bottom dollar. We started out like that, some still operate and get a lot of business. But the saying "You get what you pay for" though still applies.

There will be brides which want that, who dont want something arty, or stylish or worth watching. They just want a wedding video because someone said they should.

We've had clients who wanted the cheapest package and then negotiated on price but after they get the final product say its worth 10 times what they paid and treasure it deeply. Ain't hind sight a bitch!
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Old June 7th, 2009, 04:16 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Travis Cossel View Post
I'm sorry .. but saying photography and videography are like chalk and cheese is just as ignorant as saying no wedding video is worth $2,000 (as a bride on The Knot recently said).

Value is .. and always will be .. in the eye of the beholder. As Ethan pointed out, some people are just more drawn to the art and mystique of photography. Others are more drawn to the art and dynamics of video. Neither is better than the other, and both should command a high price for an outstanding product.

As much as videographers need to elevate their work and raise their prices, we really need to stop spending so much time worrying about how much photographers charge and how much time they spend on a project. It doesn't matter. What matters is how WE are going to elevate the status of OUR product within the wedding industry. Time and energy spent worrying about what photographers are doing is simply time and energy wasted.
Agreed!

Santo
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Old June 8th, 2009, 12:06 AM   #42
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I think a better analogy would be wine and cheese - some brides have wine in a box and velveeta budget and mentality (not that there's anything wrong with that!), others appreciate a fine vintage wine and some delicately aged brie... point being it takes all kinds, learn to find the market/brides that fit what you're trying to do.

Knowing your market is a critical factor, as if your market won't support the high end, you either need to travel/market to a different area and be able to deliver, or work within the local market parameters.

From experience in another completely different business, I will say that when you bring quality into a market, and charge accordingly, the rest of the market will typically be drawn up both in price and quality, which is good for everyone. The "sell cheap" mindset won't last, as to do so you'd better have another income stream, or be ready to find another biz in relatively short order. You can't "make it up on quantity" as there are only so many hours you can work, and only so many weddings one can shoot in a given year... props to guys like Don who do A LOT of weddings in a season!

Economically speaking, you ultimately have to provide a service at a price the market will bear, at or above a quality level the market expects, or you'll be pursuing other ways to eat... Going "cheap" to get a demo reel is one thing, but getting prices up to a "living income" has to happen farily quickly. The market will either support it or it won't.

On the other side of things, the sooner more brides realize that the multi-media approach to documenting their day is superior to a single media in the long run, the more demand there will be for quality videography.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 03:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Travis Cossel View Post
Joel, I agree with the first part of what you said. Don't EVER drop your prices .. just include less. It's hard enough to slowly raise your prices, so you don't want to go backwards.
That is just what I had to do this year. I offer a $500 package now, but I still make the same per hour as I did on a $1200 package. I really think there is a place for different price ranges and quality in wedding video. I bet a lot of people would be seriously ticked if you went to buy a car and the ONLY options were mercedes and lexus. and on top of that the dealer gave you attitude and told you if you really valued transportation then you would fork over the 60K+ and like it!

I am a kia dealer by neccessity.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 05:40 AM   #44
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Look at it this way, 30 years later you see a picture of your favorite (now passed) uncle Charlie dancing at your wedding with a big grin on his face and you can remember that moment in any context you'd like, you are allowed to remember or forget at will, you can see the grin and attach any feeling you want with it. With video that same moment is captured but you have all the context surrounding it and you are wacked over the head with the reality that that happy uncle Charlie was sloppy drunk and making an ass of himself. For memories, I'll take photos any day if I had to chose only one.
Perfect example Ethan - obviously there's tremendous value in both products and each have their strengths and weaknesses.
The passive (for lack of a better term) viewer experience that great photography can offer can't be underestimated.

I completely understand your frustration with the lack of perceived value with our craft when compared to photography. A little OT but I had a couple xxl a booking late in 08 because the chair cover people had decided to raise their prices by 10%. I was left scratching my head at the couples priorities - not to mention the front of the chair hire company.

As mentioned earlier in another poster, my thoughts would be that a steady, gradual increasing of your prices is most likely the best solution. The work I've seen of yours certainly justifies it.

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Originally Posted by Joel Peregrine View Post
"Show 'em what you can do, and don't worry about what you're gonna get. Say you'll work for free and make yourself invaluable." ~ Clinton Eastwood Sr. to his son early in his career.
Love this quote...
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Old June 9th, 2009, 09:55 AM   #45
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For me, if I only had a set amount to spend on photo or video and had to chose one over the other I'd go with photo every time, but that's just me. Why on earth would I say this? To me photo allows you to assign meaning to it over the years whereas video has it's meaning more or less burned in.

Look at it this way, 30 years later you see a picture of your favorite (now passed) uncle Charlie dancing at your wedding with a big grin on his face and you can remember that moment in any context you'd like, you are allowed to remember or forget at will, you can see the grin and attach any feeling you want with it. With video that same moment is captured but you have all the context surrounding it and you are wacked over the head with the reality that that happy uncle Charlie was sloppy drunk and making an ass of himself. For memories, I'll take photos any day if I had to chose only one.
Ethan:

If you are producing videos showing people in ANY obviously drunk or compromised manner, you are doing a huge dis-service to the client. I think anyone would agree that type of activity should be 100% edited out (except in 4X4 mudbog stlye weddings).

Having been an adult when attending weddings 30 years ago, I can also assure you, you will not remember ANY details, much less the event, and would actually appreciate seeing and hearing long passed friends and family in video. Your scenario is totally incorrect IMO. Im guessing you are just a little younger than me, no offense, and don't have the middle age perspective and life experience yet.

With that said, I do agree that photos rank above video, but for a different reason. Photos are a more tangible property in that anyone can possess, store and view them quickly at any time, in any way they want, without any equipment or effort. Remember pulling out the old 8mm projector for a family evening of home movies? Video just requires an additional level of effort to use that changes their percieved value in both costs and intrinsic worth. Photos are more shared with everyone, and video is more shared with family and close friends. Summary: Photos=lots of use/big viewing audience - Video=limited viewing audience.

Another aspect of video vs. photos is quality and content.

A favorite photo you really love is 80% content and 20% quality/production.

A favorite video you really love is more 50% content and 50% quality/production. I believe it's more difficult to make a good video than a good photo. You can throw out photos you don't like and keep the very best ones. You don't have that opportunity with video except during the editing, and the client never has that opportunity.

Edit for Don: I can still remember my wedding, and I have a video! I can't remember any aspect of my sisters wedding or if I even went (Im sure I did) and that was only 27 years ago. Kinda scary.
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Last edited by Jeff Kellam; June 9th, 2009 at 10:41 AM.
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