Why do Photographers...?

Jim Snow · September 12th, 2009, 11:02 PM

Paul, that's a very good point. Being sensitive to other vendors is important. It's very easy to get in a photographer's way. As many have suggested, communication is an important part of working together. It shouldn't be seen as a good guy or bad guy situation. The key point of interest to me in this thread is how to deal with the problem cases which are few. The most important thing to keep in mind is doing a professional job for the B&G.

Dave Blackhurst · September 13th, 2009, 02:19 PM

Both photo and video are capturing what happened... whatever that was. If the 'tog was a bonehead and intrusive, it'll likely be on the video. If the videographer was intrusive and disruptive (heard stories from officiants, after compliments as to how invisible and discreet I was...), likely they will be "caught on film".

There are some things where you "have" to get in close - but there's this lovely invention known as a "zoom" making it possible to get "close" without BEING close for every shot. DSLR's have zoom lenses too, and so the excuse "I had to do it to get the shot" is a lame one IMO. Know your gear, get whatever you need to shoot without being right in the middle of everything (with all the amateurs with pocket digicams). Get a high tripod or two for cutaway angles.

When setting up, do your best to make sure the possibility of camera obstruction is minimal, but then you will also need to let the bridal party, the officiant, and the photographer know to avoid blocking the shot if possible and be prepared to have it happen anyway. I've always had "good luck" by careful planning for where my cameras are placed - amazing how much good planning helps. Sometimes a foot or two either way is what makes or breaks the shot!

As far as dealing with "personality issues" - if there's a potential conflict, be honest and open about it, and bring a solution to the table...

I KNOW the photographer HAS to be in almost the exact same spot I do at several critical times during the ceremony, so (even if the photographer is my wife, who already knows the plan) I'll take a few moments to review those critical moments. Unless you're shooting in a bathroom, there should be enough room for everyone.

Things like "when the bride comes up the aisle, I plan to come in from stage right, and will kneel down to shoot up the aisle - if you come in from stage left, and slightly behind me, we will avoid catastrophy <wink>!". And for the recessional, "I like to again come in from opposite sides, move together part way up the aisle, and then back out in lockstep - we will back through the closed doors together, opening them for the B&G"...

You get the idea - think the potential problems through, work together to find solutions.

Acknowledging potential problems with specific solutions is the professional approach - if you're working with a pro, they will immediately see you know what you're doing, and if you're working with a "greenhorn", they should appreciate the thoughtful advice.

The rest of the time, if you know your equipment, you should be able to out-maneuver all but the most dedicated mobile or non-mobile obstruction... and not block (or be in) your own line or that of the photographer. If you're not wearing a neon shirt and trousers, you should not be too obvious even if you do inadvertently get in the shot.

PS - For this same reason the FIRST thing I do if at all possible at the reception is greet the DJ, introduce myself, and let them know what shots I need to get, and ask him/her to "keep me in the loop" - they probably won't remember, as they are busy, but sometimes they will, and every little bit helps! Also good to know if there is a co-ordinator of any sort and try to get an outline of the planned event(s).

Jeff Harper · September 13th, 2009, 09:20 PM

My shoot yesterday had three photogaphers for everything. Why in the world does it take three photographers to capture a single bride getting makeup?

During the ceremony one photographer was walking up to within two feet of the couple during the vows/rings and taking her time to get closeups. None of them even had a zoom lens. They used 35-50mm lens the whole day.

They situated one photographer to stand directly in front of my 1st camera down front and block the entire frame. I showed the lead photographer before the processional started what was in my viewfinder and gently asked if she saw what I saw and asked her what she thought. She clearly didn't want to move her assistant, but she did.

Unfortunately all three photographers were grossly obese which made the times they spent in the frame even more unfortuntate. One girl was at minimum 200 lbs overweight.

We got along just fine, but I'm going to send footage of themselves so they can see exactly what they are doing, as it is clear they have no clue.

Travis Cossel · September 13th, 2009, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Both photo and video are capturing what happened... whatever that was. If the 'tog was a bonehead and intrusive, it'll likely be on the video. If the videographer was intrusive and disruptive (heard stories from officiants, after compliments as to how invisible and discreet I was...), likely they will be "caught on film".

There are some things where you "have" to get in close - but there's this lovely invention known as a "zoom" making it possible to get "close" without BEING close for every shot. DSLR's have zoom lenses too, and so the excuse "I had to do it to get the shot" is a lame one IMO. Know your gear, get whatever you need to shoot without being right in the middle of everything (with all the amateurs with pocket digicams). Get a high tripod or two for cutaway angles.

When setting up, do your best to make sure the possibility of camera obstruction is minimal, but then you will also need to let the bridal party, the officiant, and the photographer know to avoid blocking the shot if possible and be prepared to have it happen anyway. I've always had "good luck" by careful planning for where my cameras are placed - amazing how much good planning helps. Sometimes a foot or two either way is what makes or breaks the shot!

As far as dealing with "personality issues" - if there's a potential conflict, be honest and open about it, and bring a solution to the table...

I KNOW the photographer HAS to be in almost the exact same spot I do at several critical times during the ceremony, so (even if the photographer is my wife, who already knows the plan) I'll take a few moments to review those critical moments. Unless you're shooting in a bathroom, there should be enough room for everyone.

Things like "when the bride comes up the aisle, I plan to come in from stage right, and will kneel down to shoot up the aisle - if you come in from stage left, and slightly behind me, we will avoid catastrophy <wink>!". And for the recessional, "I like to again come in from opposite sides, move together part way up the aisle, and then back out in lockstep - we will back through the closed doors together, opening them for the B&G"...

You get the idea - think the potential problems through, work together to find solutions.

Acknowledging potential problems with specific solutions is the professional approach - if you're working with a pro, they will immediately see you know what you're doing, and if you're working with a "greenhorn", they should appreciate the thoughtful advice.

The rest of the time, if you know your equipment, you should be able to out-maneuver all but the most dedicated mobile or non-mobile obstruction... and not block (or be in) your own line or that of the photographer. If you're not wearing a neon shirt and trousers, you should not be too obvious even if you do inadvertently get in the shot.

PS - For this same reason the FIRST thing I do if at all possible at the reception is greet the DJ, introduce myself, and let them know what shots I need to get, and ask him/her to "keep me in the loop" - they probably won't remember, as they are busy, but sometimes they will, and every little bit helps! Also good to know if there is a co-ordinator of any sort and try to get an outline of the planned event(s).

Two thumbs up to a great post.

Marion Abrams · September 14th, 2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jawad Mir

The reason is simple and sadly true. Those photographers that do that (not all) think they have more right over the wedding than any other vendor. I know this sounds shallow but it is sadly true.

Sometimes they are right. At the last wedding I shot the planner told me outright she would like the photographer to have priority over me for placement. Honestly I appreciated her candor, it made it easier for me to plan.

I also told her that after she worked with me a few times and saw my work, she'd be asking the photographer to stay out of my way. She said I was probably right, and a good positive working relationship was established.

Allan Phan · October 5th, 2009, 11:00 AM

I always carry an antenna pointer with me. Some how my big camcorder, a big tripod with a big light on the camera are not big enough for photographers to see so they always pick right and center of my lens and to stand. What I do is extend my antenna pen to about 5 feet, put the antenna tip to one side of the photographers and cheek and move them away from my lens, and when I do this, I don't say anything, I don't even look at them, I move them away while looking at my viewfinder so no word exchange, no gesture, and I go home happy.

Andrew Smith · October 5th, 2009, 11:10 AM

Reminds me of when I am shooting a seminar and people walk right in front of the two cameras. Right as they are in front, their brains kick in and they almost look to me as if to ask if they are now on the video.

I feel like having a sign there just for them, saying "yes, if you walk in front you really will be on the video".

A classic example is here at Napro Technology for Infertility at the 24 second mark.

Of course, the look on the face of the baby is priceless. :-)

Andrew

Jeff Kellam · October 5th, 2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allan Phan

I always carry an antenna pointer with me. Some how my big camcorder, a big tripod with a big light on the camera are not big enough for photographers to see so they always pick right and center of my lens and to stand. What I do is extend my antenna pen to about 5 feet, put the antenna tip to one side of the photographers and cheek and move them away from my lens, and when I do this, I don't say anything, I don't even look at them, I move them away while looking at my viewfinder so no word exchange, no gesture, and I go home happy.

Allan:

I believe this would work better touched to a photogs cheek.

Jeff

Jim Snow · October 5th, 2009, 01:50 PM

While we all can appreciate good humor, when I opened this thread, I was looking for opinions and advise from others with experience dealing with photographers. Good humor can sometimes provide a little comic relief if it isn't malicious but let's not just pile-on the togs. Some of the problems we have with photographers can be avoided with some tact and directness. Thoughtfulness helps as well; sometimes we can inadvertently do things to photographers that are just as objectionable as the other way around. :-)

Taky Cheung · October 5th, 2009, 03:13 PM

I worked on a wedding 2 weeks ago. There were 2 photographers. For some reason, they both don't use any zoom lens while both of them stand just a few feet away from the wedding couple. They are from the same company. Shouldn't they stretegically shoot from different angle and different distance? I hated it the big moment "You may kiss the bride" all I got is two photographers back.

Andrew Smith · October 5th, 2009, 08:23 PM

It's humor, Jim, but not as you know it.

Andrew :-)

Jim Snow · October 5th, 2009, 08:39 PM

That's a good one for people to watch who work for large companies. ;-)

Philip Howells · October 6th, 2009, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taky Cheung

I worked on a wedding 2 weeks ago. There were 2 photographers. For some reason, they both don't use any zoom lens while both of them stand just a few feet away from the wedding couple. They are from the same company. Shouldn't they stretegically shoot from different angle and different distance? I hated it the big moment "You may kiss the bride" all I got is two photographers back.

Taky another example of a photographer who knows he's on the slippery slope to oblivion - they're just trying to stop you but their demise is inevitable. 19 century media, that's all it is. The world moves and we can hear it moving.

Jeff Kellam · October 6th, 2009, 08:26 AM

Jim:

I actually have had pleasant experiences with almost all of the photogs I have worked with. I recently met a photog husband & wife team who were very nice, but the husband was in most of my shots doing what you described. I think that was a case of the layout of the venue/crowd and being somewhat unaware/oblivious. In any case I didnt get to talk to him until the reception dinner, and he was very nice, not malicous in any way, so I talked with the photog couple during dinner easing the shot blockage into the conversation and it was well recieved. Most likely that photog will be more aware of the videographer at future shoots.

Im also getting referrals from some of the photogs I have met, so it's always good to play nicely. They are also far more willing to provide photos for the DVD case and DVD face if things go smoothly.

Dave Blackhurst · October 6th, 2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taky Cheung

I worked on a wedding 2 weeks ago. There were 2 photographers. For some reason, they both don't use any zoom lens while both of them stand just a few feet away from the wedding couple. They are from the same company. Shouldn't they stretegically shoot from different angle and different distance? I hated it the big moment "You may kiss the bride" all I got is two photographers back.

Sounds like some novices to me. A good camera operator (still OR video) knows their equipment (meaning they know what's AVAILABLE, and use it accordingly!). While there are some theoretical advantages to "primes"/fixed focal length lenses, they are outweighed by being able to get the shot from an appropriate distance. They probably read somewhere about a certain lens being "da bomb", and so that's all they use...

Unfortunately everyone has to start SOMEWHERE, meaning just slightly south of clueless. I suspect there are a lot of "casual" shooters with camera gear hoping to make a few extra $$ "on the side" to make ends meet. Couple that with the internet, where everyone's an "expert", and a couple thousand $ in camera gear, and now you have a recipe for amateurs mucking things up royally.

Photographers probably have it even harder since the investment in a decent DSLR isn't that high - meaning one that will take quite acceptable pictures, not a "pro" camera. In this economy, I'm sure that the competition is pretty rough. I've seen some "budget" photogs that significantly lower the bar $$ wise...

Ultimately it's the operator who determines the professional level of the results, the gear is just "tools" - you can have the best camera around but if there's a loose nut behind the viewfinder...

October 5th, 2009, 11:00 AM	#51
Allan Phan Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 69	Antenna pointer (pen) I always carry an antenna pointer with me. Some how my big camcorder, a big tripod with a big light on the camera are not big enough for photographers to see so they always pick right and center of my lens and to stand. What I do is extend my antenna pen to about 5 feet, put the antenna tip to one side of the photographers and cheek and move them away from my lens, and when I do this, I don't say anything, I don't even look at them, I move them away while looking at my viewfinder so no word exchange, no gesture, and I go home happy.

October 6th, 2009, 08:26 AM	#59
Jeff Kellam Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 544	Jim: I actually have had pleasant experiences with almost all of the photogs I have worked with. I recently met a photog husband & wife team who were very nice, but the husband was in most of my shots doing what you described. I think that was a case of the layout of the venue/crowd and being somewhat unaware/oblivious. In any case I didnt get to talk to him until the reception dinner, and he was very nice, not malicous in any way, so I talked with the photog couple during dinner easing the shot blockage into the conversation and it was well recieved. Most likely that photog will be more aware of the videographer at future shoots. Im also getting referrals from some of the photogs I have met, so it's always good to play nicely. They are also far more willing to provide photos for the DVD case and DVD face if things go smoothly. __________________ Panasonic HMC150/Canon A1/JVC HD1/Sony Vegas 8.0c

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September 12th, 2009, 11:02 PM	#46
Jim Snow Major Player Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 356	Paul, that's a very good point. Being sensitive to other vendors is important. It's very easy to get in a photographer's way. As many have suggested, communication is an important part of working together. It shouldn't be seen as a good guy or bad guy situation. The key point of interest to me in this thread is how to deal with the problem cases which are few. The most important thing to keep in mind is doing a professional job for the B&G.

September 13th, 2009, 02:19 PM	#47
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 2,009	Both photo and video are capturing what happened... whatever that was. If the 'tog was a bonehead and intrusive, it'll likely be on the video. If the videographer was intrusive and disruptive (heard stories from officiants, after compliments as to how invisible and discreet I was...), likely they will be "caught on film". There are some things where you "have" to get in close - but there's this lovely invention known as a "zoom" making it possible to get "close" without BEING close for every shot. DSLR's have zoom lenses too, and so the excuse "I had to do it to get the shot" is a lame one IMO. Know your gear, get whatever you need to shoot without being right in the middle of everything (with all the amateurs with pocket digicams). Get a high tripod or two for cutaway angles. When setting up, do your best to make sure the possibility of camera obstruction is minimal, but then you will also need to let the bridal party, the officiant, and the photographer know to avoid blocking the shot if possible and be prepared to have it happen anyway. I've always had "good luck" by careful planning for where my cameras are placed - amazing how much good planning helps. Sometimes a foot or two either way is what makes or breaks the shot! As far as dealing with "personality issues" - if there's a potential conflict, be honest and open about it, and bring a solution to the table... I KNOW the photographer HAS to be in almost the exact same spot I do at several critical times during the ceremony, so (even if the photographer is my wife, who already knows the plan) I'll take a few moments to review those critical moments. Unless you're shooting in a bathroom, there should be enough room for everyone. Things like "when the bride comes up the aisle, I plan to come in from stage right, and will kneel down to shoot up the aisle - if you come in from stage left, and slightly behind me, we will avoid catastrophy <wink>!". And for the recessional, "I like to again come in from opposite sides, move together part way up the aisle, and then back out in lockstep - we will back through the closed doors together, opening them for the B&G"... You get the idea - think the potential problems through, work together to find solutions. Acknowledging potential problems with specific solutions is the professional approach - if you're working with a pro, they will immediately see you know what you're doing, and if you're working with a "greenhorn", they should appreciate the thoughtful advice. The rest of the time, if you know your equipment, you should be able to out-maneuver all but the most dedicated mobile or non-mobile obstruction... and not block (or be in) your own line or that of the photographer. If you're not wearing a neon shirt and trousers, you should not be too obvious even if you do inadvertently get in the shot. PS - For this same reason the FIRST thing I do if at all possible at the reception is greet the DJ, introduce myself, and let them know what shots I need to get, and ask him/her to "keep me in the loop" - they probably won't remember, as they are busy, but sometimes they will, and every little bit helps! Also good to know if there is a co-ordinator of any sort and try to get an outline of the planned event(s).

September 13th, 2009, 09:20 PM	#48
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 2,972	My shoot yesterday had three photogaphers for everything. Why in the world does it take three photographers to capture a single bride getting makeup? During the ceremony one photographer was walking up to within two feet of the couple during the vows/rings and taking her time to get closeups. None of them even had a zoom lens. They used 35-50mm lens the whole day. They situated one photographer to stand directly in front of my 1st camera down front and block the entire frame. I showed the lead photographer before the processional started what was in my viewfinder and gently asked if she saw what I saw and asked her what she thought. She clearly didn't want to move her assistant, but she did. Unfortunately all three photographers were grossly obese which made the times they spent in the frame even more unfortuntate. One girl was at minimum 200 lbs overweight. We got along just fine, but I'm going to send footage of themselves so they can see exactly what they are doing, as it is clear they have no clue.

October 5th, 2009, 11:10 AM	#52
Andrew Smith Major Player Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 292	Reminds me of when I am shooting a seminar and people walk right in front of the two cameras. Right as they are in front, their brains kick in and they almost look to me as if to ask if they are now on the video. I feel like having a sign there just for them, saying "yes, if you walk in front you really will be on the video". A classic example is here at Napro Technology for Infertility at the 24 second mark. Of course, the look on the face of the baby is priceless. :-) Andrew

October 5th, 2009, 01:50 PM	#54
Jim Snow Major Player Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 356	While we all can appreciate good humor, when I opened this thread, I was looking for opinions and advise from others with experience dealing with photographers. Good humor can sometimes provide a little comic relief if it isn't malicious but let's not just pile-on the togs. Some of the problems we have with photographers can be avoided with some tact and directness. Thoughtfulness helps as well; sometimes we can inadvertently do things to photographers that are just as objectionable as the other way around. :-)

October 5th, 2009, 03:13 PM	#55
Taky Cheung Sponsor: L.A. Color Shop Join Date: May 2007 Location: Los Angeles, USA Posts: 768	I worked on a wedding 2 weeks ago. There were 2 photographers. For some reason, they both don't use any zoom lens while both of them stand just a few feet away from the wedding couple. They are from the same company. Shouldn't they stretegically shoot from different angle and different distance? I hated it the big moment "You may kiss the bride" all I got is two photographers back.

October 5th, 2009, 08:23 PM	#56
Andrew Smith Major Player Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 292	It's humor, Jim, but not as you know it. Andrew :-)

October 5th, 2009, 08:39 PM	#57
Jim Snow Major Player Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 356	That's a good one for people to watch who work for large companies. ;-)