Why do Photographers...? at DVinfo.net

Jim Snow · September 7th, 2009, 12:45 PM

Before shooting the ceremony at a wedding recently, I had a cordial discussion with the photographer about camera placement etc. I explained that I would shoot the recessional from the back about eight feet from the back row of seats. He seemed very agreeable and cooperative and said that he would kneel directly in front of me for his shots during the recessional.

But what actually happened? The recessional started and he ran down the aisle to within four or five feet of the B&G and walked backwards in front of them all the way down the aisle. He didn't even crouch down! This is pretty predictable I've noticed with wedding recessionals. Why does a photographer feel he needs to do this? The photographer had a zoom lens on his camera. He could have shot from where he said he would and gotten great shots. As a matter of fact, he could have gotten better shots. He could have alternated between wide shots with the audience framing the shots on each side of the field of view and closer shots of the B&G with a few fast twists of his wrist - but he sure screwed up mine! If he had told me what he was actually planning on doing, I could have been off-tripod and able to maneuver around him better or pick a better angle.

Jawad Mir · September 7th, 2009, 01:42 PM

The reason is simple and sadly true. Those photographers that do that (not all) think they have more right over the wedding than any other vendor. I know this sounds shallow but it is sadly true. I have dealt with photographers who suggest me that I will have a better shot from another angle. While back, when I started, I fell for it but noticed it that he wanted to be in the spot that I was at.

The best thing to do is tell the photographer what you will be doing and if he is in your way, yell to get him out or have your assistant push him out

Ken Diewert · September 7th, 2009, 01:46 PM

Jim,

I feel your pain... what hurts is that he said one thing and did another. I suppose this is something that could be talked about at the rehearsal. Then the conversation would take place in front of the B&G, that way later when they see the shot of them walking back up the aisle with the back of the photographer blocking the shot, they'd be upset with him and not you.

There is still a sense that photos are the dominant media at weddings, and some photogs feel they have license to do whatever they like. Refreshingly, I shot a wedding this weekend, where for the first time ever, I felt the tide turning. Not that video needs to dominate, it would be great to co-exist, but I think the only way this works consistently right now, is to work with a photog on a regular basis.

Personally, I think i have more issues with amateur photogs blocking shots at weddings. This weekend I heard the annoying grinding clicks of someone near the front of the church winding a disposable camera throughout the service. I haven't checked yet to see if the priests wireless mic picked it up yet, but it sure seemed loud to me.

Jim Snow · September 7th, 2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jawad Mir

The best thing to do is tell the photographer what you will be doing and if he is in your way, yell to get him out or have your assistant push him out

That's a "sound good - feel good" thing to say but I strongly encourage videographers to avoid yelling and pushing at weddings. There are times when you are stuck and there is nothing that can be done. The shot is over in a few seconds; you either got it or you didn't. It does speak to the wisdom of having multiple cameras rolling at a wedding. You may have a few choice words for the photographer after the wedding is over, but you're stuck during the wedding. You can't disrupt the wedding just because you're upset with the photographer.

Warren Kawamoto · September 7th, 2009, 03:40 PM

In this situation, I would zoom in tight on the couple and crop out the photographer. With weddings you must think fast and always have a solution(s) to every problem that arises. There ALWAYS will be unplanned problems.

Michael Ojjeh · September 7th, 2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Snow

you're stuck during the wedding. You can't disrupt the wedding just because you're upset with the photographer.

I agree with you, I did a wedding few weeks ago and the photographers(2) were so rude to us from the minute we introduced ourself to them, then they were blocking us all day long, at one point when the best man was making his toast one of them stood right in the front of the camera which was on a tripod and when my wife asked her nicely to move one step to the right, she said NO!!!! this is my shot and she was there for about 15min. So what can you do during the wedding ? Sadly nothing....
Do what I have done in the past make a funny clips with all your blocked shots to show the B&G what you had to deal with and make it part of the DVD as a deleted scenes.
I posted these clips before.
can you find the photographer ?
Can you find the photographer? Part II

Jim Snow · September 7th, 2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren Kawamoto

In this situation, I would zoom in tight on the couple and crop out the photographer. With weddings you must think fast and always have a solution(s) to every problem that arises. There ALWAYS will be unplanned problems.

That's pretty much what I did but he still managed to interfere with the shot. Fortunately there was a second manned camera and a fixed camera so all wasn't lost. I agree that you need to expect surprises and have alternate plans - - and more than one camera rolling. My primary point was the thoughtlessness of the photographer after agreeing to a shooting plan and then forgetting all about it. I think he was so focused on his shot that he forget what he said he would do.

Chris Hurd · September 7th, 2009, 04:07 PM

As long as you have an "us vs. them" mentality with photographers, you can expect problems to crop up no matter how well-intentioned both parties claim to be. Back when I shot weddings for a living, I completely bypassed the "us vs. them" mentality by sharing studio space with a wedding photographer. We worked with each other, not against each other, thereby complimenting each others business. Those of you who find yourselves in constant "photographer battles" might want to consider expanding your businesses by either partnering with an established photographer or by otherwise adding photography services to your own rate card. Everyone -- and most importantly, the customer -- benefits when the situation is "videographer and photographer" instead of "videographer against photographer."

Jim Snow · September 7th, 2009, 04:43 PM

Chris, Every word you say is true. Of course every effort should be made to work harmoniously with the photographer. But being on close and friendly terms with synergistic photographers doesn't "inoculate" you from the offenses of some. It was great that you were close enough to a photographer to share studio space. But that isn't representative of every photographer that you will ever encounter. I very much do not have an "us vs. them" mentality. I go to great lengths to be very much the opposite. Unfortunately no matter how hard we work at grooming professional relationships with photographers, it won't prevent the occasional bad apple from rearing their head. It's pretty clear that the photographer shown in Michael Ojjeh's two clips above expressly had no interest in being anybody's pal. Frankly I think Michael's approach of doing a humorous outtake is a good idea in an extreme case like he encountered. It's a smooth way of letting the B&G know what happened.

It IS worthwhile to share ideas about how to deal with this issue when it crops up. This thread has been full of worthwhile ideas and one bad idea which I appropriately responded to. It's important to share ideas with others about ways to deal with the various problems that arise. To share knowledge and experience about how to deal with occasional difficult situations doesn't imply an "us vs. them" mentality.

Chris Harding · September 7th, 2009, 04:52 PM

Hi All

We have the same situation down-under and I always make a point of telling the photographer where my fixed camera is, yet they will often still stand in front of it. For Church services I started changing my camera position from about 4 rows back from the front pews to in front of the first row and now use the main cam in a tight shot on the couple. The second cam, being portable can then grab all the wide shots. At least this way, there is less physical space for the photographer to violate and it does help a bit. Many times I have had to shoot a fairly long cutaway sequence to cover the photographer being in the way.

However some are great and some are not!!! The really high priced ones I have worked with will even go to the extent of banning any other guests from using their cameras!!! On the average, all the ones I work with are reasonable and usually make a point of not standing in front of the camera!!

Chris

Dave Blackhurst · September 7th, 2009, 07:53 PM

I will comment that SOMETIMES it seems like banning all but the pros (both still and video) might not be so bad... I think it's the schmucks and amateur wannabe papparazzi that make it tough for BOTH the photog and the video guy... and it's only going to get worse with a still/video camera in every consumer electronic device... most of them making cute little beeps or fake shutter clicks just in case anyone didn't notice the owner was too dumb to know how to shut off the "sounds"... sigh.

I too just LOVE it when you hear one of those disposable camera film advances ratcheting away - then again the shutter on DSLR can be a problem IMO... if there's constant shooting of nothing.

BUT, one must remember that these are the friends and family of the B&G, (and another "hired gun" in the photog) and do whatever possible to deliver the best end result... sometimes against impossible conditions!

The best thing is to be professional, communicate, and hope everyone remembers who the "stars" are...

Lukas Siewior · September 7th, 2009, 09:22 PM

I stopped worrying about photogs lately. I manage to position myself with the camera close enough on one side that photog can only walk around me but not in front of me (or he/she has other side to use). You can't do nothing about paparazzi. You can do that much to keep them away from my spot. It happened many times I gave a mean look which simply showed them where their place is - behind my back.

My approach is that I'm there to do document about the B&G, so if they have 3 dozens of uncles killing themselves for "the shot" - they will be included in the video too. I won't kill myself over the shot - they don't pay me for directing the show :-)

As far as pro-photogs - so far I'm lucky to work with down-to-earth ppl. But as advised earlier, I'm looking to expand my services with contracted photog, so I know what to expect.

Philip Howells · September 8th, 2009, 04:55 AM

Having had my rant about photographers in another thread may I make the following more objective observation - that the photographers who go out of their way to make things difficult for the video people are showing a) a complete lack of confidence and experience by worrying that you have the best angle, therefore they'll stand in front of your (often fixed) camera position and b) that they recognise their time has come and they're a passing breed.

Second to that, the average wedding photographer here is using gear that my wife (a keen amateur photographer) uses Nikon D200, S800 flash, double battery base etc. Each of my tripods costs more than that!

Compare that to the investment we professional video people make (in our case three cameras, four channels of radio mic etc - an investment I estimate - including edit equipment - of $40-50,000). Long gone are the days when any photographer worthy of the name needed a Hasselblad and a couple of good lenses.

It's hardly surprising that wedding photographers are multiplying like rabbits and that most wedding fairs limit their number to four or five.

Vito DeFilippo · September 8th, 2009, 06:17 AM

I've generally had no problem with photographers, and find them courteous and professional. They are often not used to being aware of where the videographer is shooting, but I can only imagine that will improve as the percentage of weddings with video increases.

It goes both ways, too. Last weekend I thought I'd take a look in the neighbouring hall to see if I knew the photo/video team. I had just arrived to see some guy with a huge and ancient shoulder cam preparing to shoot some dancing. He turned on his sun gun and the whole room lit up like the interior of a tanning bed. I slunk away...

Noel Lising · September 8th, 2009, 07:47 AM

We offer photo and video, there are instances that the wife and I butt heads because she is in my shot and vice versa. It's a spur of the moment thing I guess and most of the time my wife stares me down into my little corner. hahaha.

I have yet to encounter a rude photographer, most are courteous and are just an anxious to get the job done as I am. You get the occasional 25 year tempermental veteran, all you have to do is play on his vanity and all is well. As I have always said compliment his camera, tell them how you admire photogs who came from the old school and that nowadays anyone who has a dslr is a photog. They like that very much, he'll make sure the waiter brings you a creme brule when you are busy shooting.

my 2 cents

September 7th, 2009, 12:45 PM	#1
Jim Snow Major Player Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 355	Why do Photographers...? Before shooting the ceremony at a wedding recently, I had a cordial discussion with the photographer about camera placement etc. I explained that I would shoot the recessional from the back about eight feet from the back row of seats. He seemed very agreeable and cooperative and said that he would kneel directly in front of me for his shots during the recessional. But what actually happened? The recessional started and he ran down the aisle to within four or five feet of the B&G and walked backwards in front of them all the way down the aisle. He didn't even crouch down! This is pretty predictable I've noticed with wedding recessionals. Why does a photographer feel he needs to do this? The photographer had a zoom lens on his camera. He could have shot from where he said he would and gotten great shots. As a matter of fact, he could have gotten better shots. He could have alternated between wide shots with the audience framing the shots on each side of the field of view and closer shots of the B&G with a few fast twists of his wrist - but he sure screwed up mine! If he had told me what he was actually planning on doing, I could have been off-tripod and able to maneuver around him better or pick a better angle.

September 7th, 2009, 01:42 PM	#2
Jawad Mir Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 85	The reason is simple and sadly true. Those photographers that do that (not all) think they have more right over the wedding than any other vendor. I know this sounds shallow but it is sadly true. I have dealt with photographers who suggest me that I will have a better shot from another angle. While back, when I started, I fell for it but noticed it that he wanted to be in the spot that I was at. The best thing to do is tell the photographer what you will be doing and if he is in your way, yell to get him out or have your assistant push him out __________________ Jawad Mir / Editor . Director http://www.jawadmir.com http://blog.jawadmir.com

September 7th, 2009, 01:46 PM	#3
Ken Diewert Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 744	Jim, I feel your pain... what hurts is that he said one thing and did another. I suppose this is something that could be talked about at the rehearsal. Then the conversation would take place in front of the B&G, that way later when they see the shot of them walking back up the aisle with the back of the photographer blocking the shot, they'd be upset with him and not you. There is still a sense that photos are the dominant media at weddings, and some photogs feel they have license to do whatever they like. Refreshingly, I shot a wedding this weekend, where for the first time ever, I felt the tide turning. Not that video needs to dominate, it would be great to co-exist, but I think the only way this works consistently right now, is to work with a photog on a regular basis. Personally, I think i have more issues with amateur photogs blocking shots at weddings. This weekend I heard the annoying grinding clicks of someone near the front of the church winding a disposable camera throughout the service. I haven't checked yet to see if the priests wireless mic picked it up yet, but it sure seemed loud to me. __________________ XLH1, HV30, 5DMk2, Sigma 15mm f2.8 fisheye, Canon 50mm f1.4, 17-40L f4, 70-200L f2.8, Lens Baby.

September 7th, 2009, 04:07 PM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 23,172 Images: 513	As long as you have an "us vs. them" mentality with photographers, you can expect problems to crop up no matter how well-intentioned both parties claim to be. Back when I shot weddings for a living, I completely bypassed the "us vs. them" mentality by sharing studio space with a wedding photographer. We worked with each other, not against each other, thereby complimenting each others business. Those of you who find yourselves in constant "photographer battles" might want to consider expanding your businesses by either partnering with an established photographer or by otherwise adding photography services to your own rate card. Everyone -- and most importantly, the customer -- benefits when the situation is "videographer and photographer" instead of "videographer against photographer." __________________ CH Search DV Info Net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DV Info Net Sponsors \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 7th, 2009, 09:22 PM	#12
Lukas Siewior Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lyndhurst, NJ, USA Posts: 277	I stopped worrying about photogs lately. I manage to position myself with the camera close enough on one side that photog can only walk around me but not in front of me (or he/she has other side to use). You can't do nothing about paparazzi. You can do that much to keep them away from my spot. It happened many times I gave a mean look which simply showed them where their place is - behind my back. My approach is that I'm there to do document about the B&G, so if they have 3 dozens of uncles killing themselves for "the shot" - they will be included in the video too. I won't kill myself over the shot - they don't pay me for directing the show :-) As far as pro-photogs - so far I'm lucky to work with down-to-earth ppl. But as advised earlier, I'm looking to expand my services with contracted photog, so I know what to expect. __________________ Lukas aka G-Gore Dreamin' TV

September 7th, 2009, 03:40 PM	#5
Warren Kawamoto Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 332	In this situation, I would zoom in tight on the couple and crop out the photographer. With weddings you must think fast and always have a solution(s) to every problem that arises. There ALWAYS will be unplanned problems.

September 7th, 2009, 04:43 PM	#9
Jim Snow Major Player Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 355	Chris, Every word you say is true. Of course every effort should be made to work harmoniously with the photographer. But being on close and friendly terms with synergistic photographers doesn't "inoculate" you from the offenses of some. It was great that you were close enough to a photographer to share studio space. But that isn't representative of every photographer that you will ever encounter. I very much do not have an "us vs. them" mentality. I go to great lengths to be very much the opposite. Unfortunately no matter how hard we work at grooming professional relationships with photographers, it won't prevent the occasional bad apple from rearing their head. It's pretty clear that the photographer shown in Michael Ojjeh's two clips above expressly had no interest in being anybody's pal. Frankly I think Michael's approach of doing a humorous outtake is a good idea in an extreme case like he encountered. It's a smooth way of letting the B&G know what happened. It IS worthwhile to share ideas about how to deal with this issue when it crops up. This thread has been full of worthwhile ideas and one bad idea which I appropriately responded to. It's important to share ideas with others about ways to deal with the various problems that arise. To share knowledge and experience about how to deal with occasional difficult situations doesn't imply an "us vs. them" mentality.

September 7th, 2009, 04:52 PM	#10
Chris Harding Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 229	Hi All We have the same situation down-under and I always make a point of telling the photographer where my fixed camera is, yet they will often still stand in front of it. For Church services I started changing my camera position from about 4 rows back from the front pews to in front of the first row and now use the main cam in a tight shot on the couple. The second cam, being portable can then grab all the wide shots. At least this way, there is less physical space for the photographer to violate and it does help a bit. Many times I have had to shoot a fairly long cutaway sequence to cover the photographer being in the way. However some are great and some are not!!! The really high priced ones I have worked with will even go to the extent of banning any other guests from using their cameras!!! On the average, all the ones I work with are reasonable and usually make a point of not standing in front of the camera!! Chris

September 7th, 2009, 07:53 PM	#11
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 2,009	I will comment that SOMETIMES it seems like banning all but the pros (both still and video) might not be so bad... I think it's the schmucks and amateur wannabe papparazzi that make it tough for BOTH the photog and the video guy... and it's only going to get worse with a still/video camera in every consumer electronic device... most of them making cute little beeps or fake shutter clicks just in case anyone didn't notice the owner was too dumb to know how to shut off the "sounds"... sigh. I too just LOVE it when you hear one of those disposable camera film advances ratcheting away - then again the shutter on DSLR can be a problem IMO... if there's constant shooting of nothing. BUT, one must remember that these are the friends and family of the B&G, (and another "hired gun" in the photog) and do whatever possible to deliver the best end result... sometimes against impossible conditions! The best thing is to be professional, communicate, and hope everyone remembers who the "stars" are...

September 8th, 2009, 04:55 AM	#13
Philip Howells Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 173	Having had my rant about photographers in another thread may I make the following more objective observation - that the photographers who go out of their way to make things difficult for the video people are showing a) a complete lack of confidence and experience by worrying that you have the best angle, therefore they'll stand in front of your (often fixed) camera position and b) that they recognise their time has come and they're a passing breed. Second to that, the average wedding photographer here is using gear that my wife (a keen amateur photographer) uses Nikon D200, S800 flash, double battery base etc. Each of my tripods costs more than that! Compare that to the investment we professional video people make (in our case three cameras, four channels of radio mic etc - an investment I estimate - including edit equipment - of $40-50,000). Long gone are the days when any photographer worthy of the name needed a Hasselblad and a couple of good lenses. It's hardly surprising that wedding photographers are multiplying like rabbits and that most wedding fairs limit their number to four or five. __________________ Philip www.phpweddings.co.uk

September 8th, 2009, 06:17 AM	#14
Vito DeFilippo Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 1,246	I've generally had no problem with photographers, and find them courteous and professional. They are often not used to being aware of where the videographer is shooting, but I can only imagine that will improve as the percentage of weddings with video increases. It goes both ways, too. Last weekend I thought I'd take a look in the neighbouring hall to see if I knew the photo/video team. I had just arrived to see some guy with a huge and ancient shoulder cam preparing to shoot some dancing. He turned on his sun gun and the whole room lit up like the interior of a tanning bed. I slunk away... __________________ . http://www.nosmallroles.com

September 8th, 2009, 07:47 AM	#15
Noel Lising Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 415	We offer photo and video, there are instances that the wife and I butt heads because she is in my shot and vice versa. It's a spur of the moment thing I guess and most of the time my wife stares me down into my little corner. hahaha. I have yet to encounter a rude photographer, most are courteous and are just an anxious to get the job done as I am. You get the occasional 25 year tempermental veteran, all you have to do is play on his vanity and all is well. As I have always said compliment his camera, tell them how you admire photogs who came from the old school and that nowadays anyone who has a dslr is a photog. They like that very much, he'll make sure the waiter brings you a creme brule when you are busy shooting. my 2 cents __________________ Noel Lising http://www.digitalstudioasia.blogspot.com/

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