Brides perspective of 5D & 7D footage at DVinfo.net

Warren Kawamoto · September 20th, 2009, 01:39 PM

We had a meeting with some brides to be, and we showed them some sample clips gleaned from some of you on this site. Most haven't seen or heard of Canon 5D footage before, but some are photography/video savvy. After watching about 5 clips in a row, these are some of their responses....interesting!

1. Some of the shots are terrific and spectacular!
2. Why does every shot start out blurry, then go into focus?
3. When in focus, the images are very sharp and clear.
4. Too many out of focus shots. For example, on a closeup of the bride's face, the focus should be on her eyes, not on the tip of her nose or the back of her ear.
5. Some of the individual shots aren't good because it's too fuzzy, but the music and editing makes the sequence better.
6. The color is very nice!
7. Some out of focus shots are ok (for artistic purposes), but I hope most of my video is in focus.

Nicholas de Kock · September 20th, 2009, 03:01 PM

Thanks that was very helpful & eye opening.

Jim Snow · September 20th, 2009, 04:25 PM

My biggest concern is that the overuse or misuse of these great cameras will give them a bad name. When used properly, some of the footage from these cameras is breathtaking, but too much usage of shallow depth of field and "wandering" focus isn't pleasing to watch. They do a number of things very well but they don't do everything very well. Did you ever try to drive a nail with a screwdriver? What about putting in screw with a hammer? - Two tools for two different purposes. No matter how well one works for a particular task doesn't mean it works well for another.

Shaun Conner · September 20th, 2009, 05:03 PM

My question is what clips did you show them, because there are really different styles of shooting and editing on here and some styles of shooting and editing are not meant for all couples which is why uncle bob still has a job.

Louis Maddalena · September 20th, 2009, 05:25 PM

Also, why were you showing clips from this site when you were meeting with clients and not showing your own work.

Paul Mailath · September 20th, 2009, 08:24 PM

I'm assuming Warren meant clips on sites like vimeo, exposureroom etc that have been refered to on this site. They are in the public domain unless they have a password and I'm sure Warren didn't represent the work as his - I understood his post to say he was showing them examples of a style.

The responses are interesting, regardless of what we think - we need to listen to the customer. I like comment number 7 - I might call it artistic but she calls it out of focus and it's her call.

Warren Kawamoto · September 21st, 2009, 11:44 AM

All of these brides-to-be have weddings planned for '09-10, and were already booked with us before the 5DMII came out. I don't shoot with a 5D, but was considering getting one.

However, for my style of shooting weddings (lots of slow-mo, creep zooms, and dissolve transitions) and after talking with these brides, I may just stick to using my EX-1 for now. My fear is that with the 5DMII, my attention would be mostly focused on the technicalities of the camera (having to switch a bunch of lenses, maintaining critical focus, not shaking, etc.) rather than the wedding itself.

Daniel Browning · September 21st, 2009, 12:00 PM

That's my experience too, they love the look. They don't notice the skew or aliasing artifacts that bother me.

Focus is definitely one of the tough things, and some have complained about the shakiness of a few of my handheld shots. Hopefully the new full-res HDMI output from Magic Lantern will help me nail focus more often, as well as alerting me when I'm a little too unsteady. (The shakey shots look fine in the LCD, but I really notice it on full-res playback.)

Ken Diewert · September 21st, 2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

That's my experience too, they love the look. They don't notice the skew or aliasing artifacts that bother me.

Focus is definitely one of the tough things, and some have complained about the shakiness of a few of my handheld shots. Hopefully the new full-res HDMI output from Magic Lantern will help me nail focus more often, as well as alerting me when I'm a little too unsteady. (The shakey shots look fine in the LCD, but I really notice it on full-res playback.)

True on all the above points... especially regarding focus. The only lens I'll shoot handheld is the fisheye. Even then I take the time to slip it on the Glidecam 2000 if I can. Using the 5d for weddings is more work for sure and you should have quality coverage from somewhere else or you may be scr*wed.

I often find I want to change lenses to often (need to plan ahead better), and it does take a bit of getting used to, to get the most out of the camera for weddings. I find I use it almost exclusively after the ceremony when covering the photo shoot and stuff. Also it's sooooo good in low light for the reception (first dance etc.). Beware though that it doesn't like flash photography at all.

Jim Snow · September 21st, 2009, 12:36 PM

I hope and look forward to the technology used in these cameras being incorporated in real video cameras. The difficulty in using these photo cameras for video applications make using them as a primary video camera a problem. They are amazing still photo cameras that can ALSO shoot video.

One of the problems with this is that the camera manufactures are very focused on market positioning of their full range of products. It's important to them to have price / performance consistency across their entire product lines. If you incorporate the sensor and in-camera processing technology into a video camera, the product positioning "calculations' would be turned upside down. For example, look at the specs on the Sony HDW-F900R Sony | HDW-F900R CineAlta 24P HDCAM Package | HDWF900RPAC1D It's a 2/3", $81,000 camera. So where do you price a new generation of video camera that at least in some respects will out-shoot an $81K camera!?

Daniel Browning · September 21st, 2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Diewert

Also it's sooooo good in low light for the reception (first dance etc.). Beware though that it doesn't like flash photography at all.

We had a deal going with the still photographers (who were also shooting 5D!) that they would only flash for part of the dance. No dice on the cake-cutting, though.

Ken Diewert · September 21st, 2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Snow

I hope and look forward to the technology used in these cameras being incorporated in real video cameras. The difficulty in using these photo cameras for video applications make using them as a primary video camera a problem. They are amazing still photo cameras that can ALSO shoot video.

One of the problems with this is that the camera manufactures are very focused on market positioning of their full range of products. It's important to them to have price / performance consistency across their entire product lines. If you incorporate the sensor and in-camera processing technology into a video camera, the product positioning "calculations' would be turned upside down. For example, look at the specs on the Sony HDW-F900R Sony | HDW-F900R CineAlta 24P HDCAM Package | HDWF900RPAC1D It's a 2/3", $81,000 camera. So where do you price a new generation of video camera that at least in some respects will out-shoot an $81K camera!?

You're right Jim, but still I sit looking at the best elements of my XLh1 and 5d2 and think... really how far away are they from marrying the best of the two together. It's still wouldn't be perfect (what is?) but The 5d2/7d is only lacking in form factor, articulating viewfinder and xlr audio inputs with controls. I use manual controls with EOS lenses on my H1 anyways, so that's not a big deal.

Jim Snow · September 21st, 2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Diewert

You're right Jim, but still I sit looking at the best elements of my XLh1 and 5d2 and think... really how far away are they from marrying the best of the two together. It's still wouldn't be perfect (what is?) but The 5d2/7d is only lacking in form factor, articulating viewfinder and xlr audio inputs with controls. I use manual controls with EOS lenses on my H1 anyways, so that's not a big deal.

Hi Ken, I won't hold my breath for any near-term products that incorporate the 5d/7d technology into a video camera. For the reason that I mentioned, and I'm sure other reasons as well, this isn't going to happen anytime soon. I see the 5d and 7d as best suited as a second camera where it can be used when its DOF and low-light capabilities can really add to a production. I would love to have one.

Jeff Kellam · September 21st, 2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Snow

.... its DOF and low-light capabilities can really add to a production. I would love to have one.

I think here is where the apples to oranges comparison comes in (especially for the 5D with even shallower DOF than the 7D).

The only way you can get good low light on the DSLRs is with the iris very open and therefore producing shallow DOF. A DSLR at F8 or a little lower would be a comparison to a typical video camera DOF (especially 1/3" sensor). But the 5D dosent have good low light at F8 which is understandable in consumer camera terms.

Your 80,000 camera example still needs a 20 to 30K lens to work. However, those 2/3" cameras are designed to shoot at F11 or even higher to overcome the shallow DOF issues in a shoot. So a DSLR is no where near a $100K+ camera, although it's getting better every iteration. But even if it were sensitive enough, you still need that 20 to 30K lens to make it usable.

So, I don't think it's a matter of marrying the two or working them out, I think it's just a whole different tool.

Dave Blackhurst · September 21st, 2009, 05:10 PM

It doesn't surprise me that the capabilities of the new toys are perhaps overused - they have a place, like anything else, and it will take time to integrate this new and different sort of gear into the workflow. Personally, I see the DSLR-V as the creative/glamour cam, nothing wrong with that, for me I like the idea that it integrates with "traditional" footage, but adds to it.

I think the thing you have to remember is that in effect, DSLR-V's have shown us that the camera can be modular, and at a price point that is reasonably affordable.

The average consumer isn't going to want a camera that has shallow DOF, a bunch of optional lenses, lots of controls, and all that stuff. Thus the EASY button...

BUT, if since we want a bit more as "professionals" we can see the advantages of a nice SENSOR, interchangeable LENSES, advanced image processing (with tweakable firmware, even better!), and a reasonably easy to use compact form factor.

Ultimately, a camera, whether video or still is a modular agglomeration of susbystems:
A sensor block/chip
image processor/firmware
Lens
viewfinder/screen
Audio subsystem (almost forgot that!)
storage media
power supply/battery
Support/stabilizer system (somewhat optional)

If one thinks modular (as RED did), then it's just a matter of integrating the best of each subsystem into a final product that you can sell at a decent price and make a profit. Canon has changed the game with the 5D and 7D, I can't help but think the other manufacturers are trying to figure out what comes next. I can't help but wonder if the "prosumer" camera as we have thought of it for many years may be on the short road to extinction.

I tend to think my next "big" camera will be a DSLR-V (if Sony had released an Alpha body with workable video this round, I'd already be in line...). I'm very happy with tapeless, and so tape options leave me cold... I also shoot stills, so a good still camera sounds good to me, as long as the video is good too. Manual control and interchangeable lenses again fit the bill for "creative" shooting. I can always do "double source" for audio, though usable on camera would be good.

I'm pretty sure the market is out there, we all want a camera with decent auto features (for those times when it is handy), manual control of the essential functions (for when we want to be creative), versatility, and compact form factor, with of course the best image quality possible...

The DSLR-V just offers a different "take" on the approach - I'm not sure Canon really had any idea that the whole video thing would be such a huge feature - looks more like an "add-on" that overtook the main features (and that seems like how the other manufacturers are approching it - the video is an afterthought, NOT the main thing...). Obviously the market reaction will alter that perception, and a year or two from now we MIGHT start seeing what the next generation really can offer. Till then, we just have to concentrate on creating the most exciting (and marketable) images the tools allow for - what a great time to be in creative imaging... the selection of "hammers" to build with is just getting better and better!

September 20th, 2009, 01:39 PM	#1
Warren Kawamoto Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,435	Brides perspective of 5D & 7D footage We had a meeting with some brides to be, and we showed them some sample clips gleaned from some of you on this site. Most haven't seen or heard of Canon 5D footage before, but some are photography/video savvy. After watching about 5 clips in a row, these are some of their responses....interesting! 1. Some of the shots are terrific and spectacular! 2. Why does every shot start out blurry, then go into focus? 3. When in focus, the images are very sharp and clear. 4. Too many out of focus shots. For example, on a closeup of the bride's face, the focus should be on her eyes, not on the tip of her nose or the back of her ear. 5. Some of the individual shots aren't good because it's too fuzzy, but the music and editing makes the sequence better. 6. The color is very nice! 7. Some out of focus shots are ok (for artistic purposes), but I hope most of my video is in focus. Last edited by Warren Kawamoto; September 20th, 2009 at 04:22 PM.

September 20th, 2009, 05:25 PM	#5
Louis Maddalena Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NYC Area. Posts: 550	Also, why were you showing clips from this site when you were meeting with clients and not showing your own work. __________________ Red Epic available for rent, starting at $500 per day, Scarlets, and Lenses available too. rentals.maddalenamedia.com

September 20th, 2009, 08:24 PM	#6
Paul Mailath Trustee Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Coast - NSW, Australia Posts: 1,606	I'm assuming Warren meant clips on sites like vimeo, exposureroom etc that have been refered to on this site. They are in the public domain unless they have a password and I'm sure Warren didn't represent the work as his - I understood his post to say he was showing them examples of a style. The responses are interesting, regardless of what we think - we need to listen to the customer. I like comment number 7 - I might call it artistic but she calls it out of focus and it's her call. __________________ Cheers - Paul M. www.perbenyik.com

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September 20th, 2009, 03:01 PM	#2
Nicholas de Kock Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: KLD, South Africa Posts: 983	Thanks that was very helpful & eye opening.

September 20th, 2009, 04:25 PM	#3
Jim Snow Trustee Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 1,104	My biggest concern is that the overuse or misuse of these great cameras will give them a bad name. When used properly, some of the footage from these cameras is breathtaking, but too much usage of shallow depth of field and "wandering" focus isn't pleasing to watch. They do a number of things very well but they don't do everything very well. Did you ever try to drive a nail with a screwdriver? What about putting in screw with a hammer? - Two tools for two different purposes. No matter how well one works for a particular task doesn't mean it works well for another.

September 20th, 2009, 05:03 PM	#4
Shaun Conner Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 196	My question is what clips did you show them, because there are really different styles of shooting and editing on here and some styles of shooting and editing are not meant for all couples which is why uncle bob still has a job.

September 21st, 2009, 11:44 AM	#7
Warren Kawamoto Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,435	All of these brides-to-be have weddings planned for '09-10, and were already booked with us before the 5DMII came out. I don't shoot with a 5D, but was considering getting one. However, for my style of shooting weddings (lots of slow-mo, creep zooms, and dissolve transitions) and after talking with these brides, I may just stick to using my EX-1 for now. My fear is that with the 5DMII, my attention would be mostly focused on the technicalities of the camera (having to switch a bunch of lenses, maintaining critical focus, not shaking, etc.) rather than the wedding itself.

September 21st, 2009, 12:00 PM	#8
Daniel Browning Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 949	That's my experience too, they love the look. They don't notice the skew or aliasing artifacts that bother me. Focus is definitely one of the tough things, and some have complained about the shakiness of a few of my handheld shots. Hopefully the new full-res HDMI output from Magic Lantern will help me nail focus more often, as well as alerting me when I'm a little too unsteady. (The shakey shots look fine in the LCD, but I really notice it on full-res playback.)

September 21st, 2009, 12:36 PM	#10
Jim Snow Trustee Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 1,104	I hope and look forward to the technology used in these cameras being incorporated in real video cameras. The difficulty in using these photo cameras for video applications make using them as a primary video camera a problem. They are amazing still photo cameras that can ALSO shoot video. One of the problems with this is that the camera manufactures are very focused on market positioning of their full range of products. It's important to them to have price / performance consistency across their entire product lines. If you incorporate the sensor and in-camera processing technology into a video camera, the product positioning "calculations' would be turned upside down. For example, look at the specs on the Sony HDW-F900R Sony \| HDW-F900R CineAlta 24P HDCAM Package \| HDWF900RPAC1D It's a 2/3", $81,000 camera. So where do you price a new generation of video camera that at least in some respects will out-shoot an $81K camera!?

September 21st, 2009, 05:10 PM	#15
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	It doesn't surprise me that the capabilities of the new toys are perhaps overused - they have a place, like anything else, and it will take time to integrate this new and different sort of gear into the workflow. Personally, I see the DSLR-V as the creative/glamour cam, nothing wrong with that, for me I like the idea that it integrates with "traditional" footage, but adds to it. I think the thing you have to remember is that in effect, DSLR-V's have shown us that the camera can be modular, and at a price point that is reasonably affordable. The average consumer isn't going to want a camera that has shallow DOF, a bunch of optional lenses, lots of controls, and all that stuff. Thus the EASY button... BUT, if since we want a bit more as "professionals" we can see the advantages of a nice SENSOR, interchangeable LENSES, advanced image processing (with tweakable firmware, even better!), and a reasonably easy to use compact form factor. Ultimately, a camera, whether video or still is a modular agglomeration of susbystems: A sensor block/chip image processor/firmware Lens viewfinder/screen Audio subsystem (almost forgot that!) storage media power supply/battery Support/stabilizer system (somewhat optional) If one thinks modular (as RED did), then it's just a matter of integrating the best of each subsystem into a final product that you can sell at a decent price and make a profit. Canon has changed the game with the 5D and 7D, I can't help but think the other manufacturers are trying to figure out what comes next. I can't help but wonder if the "prosumer" camera as we have thought of it for many years may be on the short road to extinction. I tend to think my next "big" camera will be a DSLR-V (if Sony had released an Alpha body with workable video this round, I'd already be in line...). I'm very happy with tapeless, and so tape options leave me cold... I also shoot stills, so a good still camera sounds good to me, as long as the video is good too. Manual control and interchangeable lenses again fit the bill for "creative" shooting. I can always do "double source" for audio, though usable on camera would be good. I'm pretty sure the market is out there, we all want a camera with decent auto features (for those times when it is handy), manual control of the essential functions (for when we want to be creative), versatility, and compact form factor, with of course the best image quality possible... The DSLR-V just offers a different "take" on the approach - I'm not sure Canon really had any idea that the whole video thing would be such a huge feature - looks more like an "add-on" that overtook the main features (and that seems like how the other manufacturers are approching it - the video is an afterthought, NOT the main thing...). Obviously the market reaction will alter that perception, and a year or two from now we MIGHT start seeing what the next generation really can offer. Till then, we just have to concentrate on creating the most exciting (and marketable) images the tools allow for - what a great time to be in creative imaging... the selection of "hammers" to build with is just getting better and better!