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Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old July 1st, 2005, 12:27 PM   #16
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Hi all.

So it seems everibody here desagrees with me. I respect that and believe me, I'm an easygoing kind of guy.
The point here, and if you look at the original post, he was talking about a explicit interference and lack of respect to the other fellow, not the kind of "ups sorry I'm in your way" that can happen to any one of us.

So you all agree that even after you tell him that he should be more carefull, he keeps on putting himself deliberatly in front of you, you simply do nothing.That's it?

Please note this: I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'v great respect for the opinions expressed here by people with far more experience on this issues than me. It's simply dificult for me to do nothing when a person like that is deliberatly ruining the work the B/G comissioned me to do.

Best regards,
Arnaldo
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Old July 1st, 2005, 12:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
Actually a wedding videographer is a photographers worst nightmare..
That's an astonishingly poor generalization. A good videographer and a good photographer complement each other nicely. Back when I did weddings, one of my business partners was a still photographer. Not only did we work well together, but we gave each other a lot of business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
Photographers know that they can be fired and a videographer can take their job.
Absolutely incorrect. Only those very few videographers who come from a solid background in photography could take their job. If a photographer is "fired" before the event, another photgrapher gets the gig. If a photographer is fired at the event, well, there's plenty of other still cameras at a wedding. Same thing is true for videographers, too... they can be fired and replaced as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
A photographer will always argue to go professional for the photo shoot and let Uncle Harry do the filming.
Not the photographers I've ever worked with. In fact I've never heard of such a thing. You're getting a little loose with your generalizations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
Photographers think that they are the elite but I have always told a photographer that a high definition videographer is the elite of the elite.
If you've really said that to photographers then I can understand why you have such a poor relationship with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
With my HD-Cam I can put together some pretty good frame grabs and make a nice photo album for my clients but since I'm limited to one megapixel the still photographer will still outgun me for blowups. However the newer HD cams are capable of producing 3 megapixel still images in full 3 CCD quality.
And yet you can only produce prints from video, which isn't the same thing as photography at all. There is a fundamental difference between photography and videography which has nothing whatsoever to do with print size, resolution, or cameras. The difference is the medium itself. The technique and approach to shooting high-quality moving images is completely different from the technique and approach to shooting high-quality still images. You can't expect to do both at the same time and produce anything usable, because you can't be in two places at once. In the most basic example, where a videographer stands and where a photographer stands to cover the same action are most often two completely different physical locations. As a business owner you might have shooters working for you that are cross-trained in both photo and video, but guess what... at an event, one will be working as a photographer and the other as a videographer because they're two completely different things. Heck, give each of them the exact same hybrid still camera-slash-HD camcorder. Even with identical tools, they'll still be operating with an entirely different workflows, because videography and photgraphy are two separate things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
The point I'm trying to make is that video technology is rapidly catching up and the still photographer is no longer King in the resolution department.
Resolution really has nothing to do with it. And actually the only point you're making is that you're not very good at generalizations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
Still photographers know this and they know that their trade is dying.
Nonsense. The exact opposite is true; thanks to the remarkable advancements in digital still imaging technology, still photography is flourishing more now than ever before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
The smart still photographers are buying HD cams.
The smart still photographers are expanding their business by hiring or partnering with competent HD videographers... that is, those videographers who know how to conduct themselves on a professional basis. Hope this helps,
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Old July 1st, 2005, 01:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnaldo Paixao
So you all agree that even after you tell him that he should be more carefull, he keeps on putting himself deliberatly in front of you, you simply do nothing.That's it?
No. That's not it. In a situation such as you describe, you should not react by "doing nothing." You should react by working around the problem to the best of your abilities. Find a new shooting angle. Change position. Improvise, adapt and overcome. Rise up to the challenge of how to achieve the best possible results while faced with an unfavorable situation. Think quickly and smartly and work through it. That's what you're paid for. Going through this difficult encounter is a process commonly known as "gaining experience."

What you should never do under any circumstances is to escalate the problem. Someone else's rudeness (or what you perceive to be rudeness) toward you does NOT provide justification for you to behave in a similarly rude manner. If more people understood that simple concept, there would be fewer outbursts and we'd all enjoy our work and produce better images. If you're upset, you can't perform well, and the quality of what you're being paid to do will suffer, along with your reputation, eventually.
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Old July 1st, 2005, 01:10 PM   #19
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i have this old saying..

just coz someone thinks on a different level than yourself, doesnt mean you should lower yourself to join them...
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Old July 1st, 2005, 03:56 PM   #20
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Peter,

We had a saying about that in the Army:

You can get in there and wrestle with a pig...you'll both get muddy.
The difference is...the pig likes it.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 03:59 AM   #21
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Whem I say "do nothing" is regarding the photographer, not the situation. You already must have that ability with the guests that put themselves in front of your camera, and even the majority of them will willingly move away if you asked them to.

I understand the views expressed here, and I'm correcting my first eye for an eye reply to this post, but have you ever wondered why this photographers act like they do? Perhaps because no one has ever draw a line in front of them.

Best regards,
Arnaldo

Last edited by Arnaldo Paixao; July 4th, 2005 at 09:16 AM.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 08:30 AM   #22
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"an eye for an eye"

hmmm...

but instead of crossing them, why not turn it into a game and make them look like a fool instead??

This way the client only sees you as being "helpful" and their fotos arent ruined by ur head gettin in the way..

on some occasions, when im dealing with pretentious morons, is to set up afew of my old classic shots (which the fotographer wouldnt even consider, due to teh fact that im either lying on the ground or up on a tree... ) but these video shots actually give awesome Still compositions as well, so once i set up my video shot, i take that, then swap cameras with a DSLR and take a still of that same shot.. 99% of the time, my "posed" shots work out better then the photographers (mind you my posing only cost me 15 seconds to set up and another 15 to film), But being a little more original and dynamic with your work really ruins their day when the client comes back for reprints as opppsed to gettin reprints from the "offical" photographer...

theres more than one way to skin a cat.. just make sure u have a variety of knives with you.. And remember, the sharper the knife, the safer you are....
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Old July 4th, 2005, 06:46 PM   #23
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Photography isn't going away and videography isn't taking over, but there's a good chance we'll see more and more couples wanting both and looking for one company to provide both services. I see a lot of photographers now offering videography and see no reason not to do the reverse, especially since most couples seem to be willing to pay more for photography for less overall work. My wife and I are taking classes in photography and lining up the equipment we'll need to take competent pictures, and I'm looking forward to being able to have some say in what the photographer does. I understand that they have a job to do, but many of them don't seem to be mindful of the impact they have on the quality of a couple's wedding video.

I know for myself I'll always value both still photos and video. Photography is an innate part of weddings both by tradition and because pictures are easy and fun to look at, but there's no substitute for seeing a good video of your wedding day. My goal now is to be able to offer both, but I'll also do my best to continue to work with photographers as professionally as possible.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 07:39 AM   #24
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"but there's a good chance we'll see more and more couples wanting both and looking for one company to provide both services"

I agree 100% but i use a marketting ploy to work around this if my photographic contacts arent available for that day.

basically id LIKE to offer photogrpahy and video, but im too choosy, so now i jsut refer certain job leads to specific photographers i have worked with.
From here, we advise teh client tht even though we work together and the packages have ben budgeted accordingly, each business specialises (keyword) in each respective dept

This gives them a little more confidence in what we do and how we do it.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 10:48 AM   #25
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My 1 /1/2 cents

I ran into this once, I'll spare you the details, but when the dust settled, my video turned out better than her photo's and every one in the wedding party knew the photographer sucked. One detail, it took her 4.5 hours to do the set pictures i.e. bride and groom, family etc. In that one instance I took the high road.

I have learned since then to address the 'photographer' question with my bride at the outset. If the bride is going to have a photographer, I let them know up front of what my services will be, (usually including still for my video) and we go from there. Since I've started this practice of letting the bride know of what I do, I've yet to have a bad problem. I think one of the best things as a professional you can have are people skills. I'm sure I'll run into that hell photgrapher again, but for know I'll communicate the best I can with my bride and other vendors.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 01:22 PM   #26
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I've only done a few weddings for family, the rest is professional corporate work. In any case, when things are live, you have little time to make a scene, and it would be foolish to draw attention to yourself. The day belongs to the Bride and Groom. These folks are already stressed from the direction of family and friends and playing their roll. Even so, they don't know whether you've blown a shot or not. They will be happy with whatever video you deliver as long as it conveys the story of their wedding. Simply and quickly move your camera, knowing that your second b-roll cam will cover.

The photographer is also trying to get their job done as well, and may view yours as an intrusion in the same manner. There's nothing wrong with restaging a shot if you feel so inclined, and have permission to do so. I'm sure it's been done before.

If your a pro, then make the shoot work. Personally, if the edit works, then I'd never let the client know there was a mistake because of so-and-so. They may not view your excuse as a reason. Photographers getting in the way is expected, (what if the photographer was a relative?).

Actually, providing both photography and video seems to be a lucrative venture. Team up with a partner and charge more, or get to know some good ones and recommend working with them in exchange for leads.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 02:53 PM   #27
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I had a fairly rude photog (personality - her assistant was OK) for a wedding this Sunday (noon - bad lighting and good lord it was hot) but ultimately it went quite smoothly (professionally). My approach - and it worked well for this event - is to be the first to approach the other and introduce myself and what I'm doing. I don't give them the chance to tell me what I should be doing in relation to their work.

"Hi.. I'm Pat.. my assistant and I are videography for the day (etc).. we're pretty unobtrusive but we may be here and there [note: handheld & we move A LOT]. I'll always be mindful of where you are and any shots your trying to get." Etc. From there, I just do my own thing.

Don't give them the chance to tell you what you should be doing (don't put the ball in their court - ALWAYS keep it in yours). Always be respectful and mindful of them, but ultimately you should be in control over what you're trying to capture.

$.02 YMMV IMO etc
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Old July 6th, 2005, 05:34 AM   #28
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Well, this thread has turned out to be much more popular and interesting than I thought it would. A lot of good suggestions have been made, and I plan on making the best of them to have a harmonious shoot with the photographer.

As someone mentioned, many photographers have had similar experiences/feelings with rude videographers. For example, see Nasty video people at photo.net. These photographers have also noted rude behavior by DJs.

Bottom line, it's not the profession, it's the individual. There are rude, inconsiderate people in every field and profession. The challenge is not to form a stereotype image of any profession. All we can do as videographers is to make sure we don't contribute to the "rude videographer" image that some photographers have formed of us.

I think the key is good communications with the B&G and with the photographer, and while being considerate and professional at all times, also being firm and assertive when the occasion calls for it. I would hope having a friendly, upbeat conversation with the photographer at the very beginning will prevent problems most of the time. I plan on relating to the photographer about one bad experience I had with a rude photographer, and that I just want to make sure that we both serve the B&G and we should be able to be courteous and respectful of one another and still get our job done.

I also plan on advising the B&G well before the wedding about the potential of some shots being spoiled by the photographer. I will advise them that my basic approach will be to work with the photographer, and even work around them if need be to get the important shots. In the event of the photographer completely preventing me from getting a critical shot I will just do the best I can rather than create a scene or bother the B&G on the day of their wedding. Unless, of course, the B&G would prefer me to bring it to their attention so that the critical shot can be obtained.

Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

Best Regards,
Pete
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Old July 6th, 2005, 05:57 AM   #29
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[QUOTE=Pete Wilie]..... I plan on making the best of them to have a harmonious shoot with the photographer.

This is certainly better than shooting the photographer harmoniously.
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Old July 7th, 2005, 02:44 PM   #30
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Put it in your contract that you are not responsible for the photographer blocking your shots unnecessarily. Recommend in the contract that the B&G should enlighten the photographer about professional etiquite. After that, no matter what happens you should not worry; you've done your part. Nevertheless I've had times where I had to politely remind the Photo guy not to block my second remote cam in the middle of the wedding and he complied. Since there is normally just one photo guy at a wedding I otherwise have little difficulty getting around him even if I have to go mobile on him and position my cam side by side with him as the bride walks down the isle. Don't be ashamed to move around as he does if you have a mobile setup. Lots of times I shorten the tripod legs and grab the tripod by its neck and shoot that way when a critical blocking situation arises while my second or 3rd cam is getting the wide angle action. I have little worries even though I shoot the whole wedding single handedly with three cams. Some may say why worry the B&G with such a thing but where the same thing you say goes in one ear and out the other of the photoguy it is sure to have more weight comming from the B&G who tell the photoguy the importance of their wedding video. After all, they will be whe ones who pay him not you.
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