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Old June 15th, 2005, 01:02 AM   #1
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Rude Photographer

My last wedding shoot provided a real surprise. The still photographer was totally rude and inconsiderate of the videography. Many shots were spoiled by the photographer and/or her husband/assistant walking directly in front of our cameras unnecessarily. Although I was offended, the primary result was a loss of quality video for the B&G.

How do you folks deal with rude/inconsiderate photographers?

This was a special circumstance. Both the photographer and I were providing our services at cost because we were friends of the bride's parents. I really don't know how I could have handled things better, but if anyone sees a better approach please let me know.

This was a beach wedding on north Padre Island, by Corpus Christi, Tx. Everyone had to travel to the location. My crew (myself and one other cameraman) arrived Friday in anticipation of the rehearsal. The wedding was on Saturday. The rehearsal didn't happen, but we had the detailed plan of the wedding day.

On the wedding day, the photographer did not arrive until a couple of hours ahead of the ceremony. So although we had done our homework, the photographer showed up at the last minute totally unprepared. We were all in the bride's parents' suite preparing for the wedding. When the photographer arrived, she immediately started asking me questions about what the plan was. I specifically took care to let the photographer know that I was more than willing to work with her. I even said that I would make every effort to make sure that I did not get in the way, and that if, by accident, I did, then please let me know so I could move.

Although I was very pressed for time to prepare for the ceremony, I spent about 30 minutes with the photographer answering her questions about the bride's plan.

Well, to make a long story short, not one time did I or any of my crew get in the way of the photographer. However, once I begin to cut the wedding I found many cases where the photographer and/or her assistant walked directly in front of our cameras, ruining our shot. And it was totally unnecessary. For example, when the father and bride were walking down the "isle", my 2nd cameraman was shooting on the left side of the isle. The photographer walked directly in front of him to make a shot which could have been made just as easily from the other side of the isle. This was repeated numerous times.

I really don't understand it. I took precious time to help the photographer, yet she showed us no consideration what-so-ever.

How do I prevent this from happening in the future?
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Old June 15th, 2005, 04:03 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Wilie
How do you folks deal with rude/inconsiderate photographers?

On the wedding day, the photographer did not arrive until a couple of hours ahead of the ceremony. So although we had done our homework, the photographer showed up at the last minute totally unprepared. We were all in the bride's parents' suite preparing for the wedding. When the photographer arrived, she immediately started asking me questions about what the plan was. I specifically took care to let the photographer know that I was more than willing to work with her. I even said that I would make every effort to make sure that I did not get in the way, and that if, by accident, I did, then please let me know so I could move.
I've worked on both sides (video and photo) shooting weddings, so I get along with pretty much every videographer and photographer I work with at weddings.

You went above and beyond the call by helping the photographer. A true professional would have done their homework and not show up unprepared at the last minute. I don't think there's any more you could have done. You are only responsible for creating the very best video for the couple. The photographer is responsible for the photos. She should know what is going on without having to ask you (unless there were last minute changes).

Was there a reason why she was late? Delay at the airport? Flat tire?

When you mention that the photographer walked in front of your cameras messing up your shots, it could be she wasn't thinking of the video. She could have been too flustered by not being ready. If she was in a rush to get a shot, she could have been too focused on that instead of being aware of your shot.

I've found it's very rare to come across a photographer who INTENTIONALLY wants to ruin the videoperson's shots. It's rude and UNprofessional. When you think about it, it's not good for the photographer, because when the bride sees WHO is the person who walked in front of the shot, that's probably who they'll be upset at. Nothing you can do about it except try to edit it out creatively. "Dammit Jim, I'm a videographer, not a magician!".

Usually when I'm shooting video at a wedding, I incorporate the photographer into my shots - he/she is part of the day too, so I try to show some of the interaction between the couple and the photographer. Or sometimes I'll use the photographer as a prop - ex. slow trucking shot from behind the photographer to reveal the couple.

Luckily, here on Maui we have a lot of very friendly PROFESSIONAL photographers that work well with videographers. It's a small island so we kinda have to all get along. When the photographer and videographer can work together as a team, things go smoother and it's a better experience for the couple.
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Old June 15th, 2005, 10:34 AM   #3
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In the six years that my wife and I have filmed toghether, the majority of the photographers have been a pleasure to work with. The few who have not been were amateur and unprepared for the stress of the wedding. However, that being said we have also made a few enemies.

For the purposes of the DVD case, menus, and even the video, we have always brought our still camera and taken still shots. We explain this to every bride and groom (who are pleased about this) and tell them that our purpose is only the above, and not to replace the photographer. Nevertheless, we have run into a few photographers who have gotten right in my wife's face (its funny how they wouldn't get in a mans face) and chew her out--in public--in front of the bride and groom. They have claimed that they are the photographers, they are the artists, and no one is allowed to take pictures but them(you can laugh here). To me, there is nothing more unprofessional than this as both of us (photographers and videographers) are working to produce the best results for the bride and groom, plain and simple and starting a fight amonst us at a wedding doesnt fit that bill.
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Old June 15th, 2005, 11:46 PM   #4
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"For the purposes of the DVD case, menus, and even the video, we have always brought our still camera and taken still shots. We explain this to every bride and groom (who are pleased about this) and tell them that our purpose is only the above, and not to replace the photographer. Nevertheless, we have run into a few photographers who have gotten right in my wife's face (its funny how they wouldn't get in a mans face) and chew her out--in public--in front of the bride and groom. They have claimed that they are the photographers, they are the artists, and no one is allowed to take pictures but them(you can laugh here). To me, there is nothing more unprofessional than this as both of us (photographers and videographers) are working to produce the best results for the bride and groom, plain and simple and starting a fight amonst us at a wedding doesnt fit that bill."

Ive had a similar thing happen to us. My wife and i also work as a team and this has happened maybe twice in 2 years (since going public with weddings) corporate, i have NEVER had this issue..

Ive also had a photographer tell me to stop filming at the fotoshoot becuase this was "his time" LOL No shit, he was throwing a tantrum like a lil schoolboy..

I told him he can tell the bride and groom to direct me if he feels that way.. he sulked and walked away..

In a previous post i was refering to assertiveness.. its times like this where we as professionals must deal with the situation. And if u can make the photographer look like a dickhead in the meantime, even better..
dont get me wrong, most photographers ive worked with love the way we work together and ive had some incredible opportunities to join forces with them and make our business' even more than what they are, however, i have worked with MANY photographers and i dont feel that doing that would give me the freedom and flexibility to work with other photographers who are jsut as good.

Of a day, i usually chat with the photographer, and i let them know where i stand and how i will respect what they need to do to get their job done. In return, i expect the same courtesy. If i dont get it, i WILL step on him and make him look like a fool.
Sounds rough, but if thats what i have to do, so be it. (ive only done that once though.. and the guy was a real tosser.. no shit, hed take a foto and before the shutter closed on his camera, hed walk in front so noone else gets that shot again. He WAS fast i give him that, but the only reason he was fast was coz he didnt let anyone else take the fotos composed.. )

Anyways, if a photographer is such a dick to me or any of my crew (or anyone else for that matter, be it guest or what have you) I wont accept that. In teh contract, i mention that we have the right to refuse service. So if a drunk decides he wants to hijack a fixes camera, illl debrief the bride and groom and explain the situation.

Going back to photographers and bad attitudes...
Im the one with 4 camera crews and enough lights to illuminate a stadium (well almsot, but im working on it.. lol ;) )
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Old June 17th, 2005, 11:26 AM   #5
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"How do you folks deal with rude/inconsiderate photographers?"

You put yourself behind the B&G with your camera light on and pointed at him.

You put yourself in front of him exactly the same as he did.

At the first chance you tell him no can do.

You tell the B&G.

You do not let it pass. No way. You'r a professional. The B&G hired you to do a job. You go to them and tell them the fotographer is interfeering with your work.

Don't be afraid to "spoil their day" with a "minor nuissance". It is not minor. You make them feel that you take your work seriously, as a pro.

Best regards,
Arnaldo
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Old June 17th, 2005, 11:38 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Arnaldo Paixao
You put yourself behind the B&G with your camera light on and pointed at him.

You put yourself in front of him exactly the same as he did.

I don't think thats the best way to handle the matter. I do not want the bride and groom coming to me later asking why I was pointing my Hot Light directly into the camera lens. Remember, the B&G are paying our bills--treat them with respect. Unfortunately, some wedding photographers are primadonnas who must think that they are Ansel Adams.
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Old June 17th, 2005, 06:24 PM   #7
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My company doesn't have this problem. Solution....easy. We provide both the video and the photography. We have found that more & more Bride & grooms are booking us booking us because they have heard of horror stories between videographers and photographers from different companies. 90% of our jobs are a combination package. Because we work together all the time there are no problems. The plus side is we make more money also.
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Old June 17th, 2005, 08:12 PM   #8
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Rude people

It is interesting. If you are on a video discussion forum it is the 'rude photographer' and if you are on a photography forum it is the 'rude videographer'.

Well guess what there are 'rude people'. They come in all sizes and some do video some do photography and some do all kinds of other things.

Nothing one can do about it. Worst thing you can do is to become rude also as someone said. That IMO makes you worse than the other guy. Nothing good comes from it.

Be professional and do the best you can do dealing with the situation.
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Old June 30th, 2005, 04:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Pike
I don't think thats the best way to handle the matter. I do not want the bride and groom coming to me later asking why I was pointing my Hot Light directly into the camera lens. Remember, the B&G are paying our bills--treat them with respect. Unfortunately, some wedding photographers are primadonnas who must think that they are Ansel Adams.
"Remember, the B&G are paying our bills--treat them with respect."

Exactly. And they don't expect lousy video because the unconsiderate photographer was in front of my camera all the time.

Best regards,
Arnaldo
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Old June 30th, 2005, 08:22 AM   #10
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I can think of no example of unprofessional, inexcuseable behavior worse than openly competing with a photographer over a shooting position or to purposefully try to get into their shot. That is an extremely unprofessional thing to do. To take some perceived offense against you and escalate it in a such a manner is highly unethical.

In a situation where a photographer refuses to cooperate with you, take the high road and do your best to shoot as well as you can anyway. I would not bother the B&G about it during the event. You might tell them about the situation later on when they come to review the video. Not once have I ever had a B&G complain to me about the ominipresence of a photographer in a wedding video. In fact I have gone out of my way to include the photographer in my shots... after all, the photographer was there and was a crucial part of the day's events.
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Old June 30th, 2005, 10:05 AM   #11
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One of the first people I talk to is the photographer if I'm shooting video. I ask him up front if there is any thing I can do to make things run smooth and see what his plan for the day is going to be. Like Chris said I also include the photographer as part of the days events. I don't mind if you see the guy taking pictures of the B & G.

I had one photographer ask me not to video tape him setting up the shoots. I guess he thought I was going to make a wedding how to video! I still did anyway. He was happy, the B&G were happy.
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Old June 30th, 2005, 10:07 AM   #12
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I've only shot one wedding, but I've delt with this issue. I didn't find it to be such a huge problem. He moved in front of me a couple of times- effectively blocking my shot, but i just picked up the camera and shot from another spot. I filled the gaps in post with photo montages- this actually added to the piece making it more varied, and more watchable.
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Old July 1st, 2005, 10:44 AM   #13
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Actually a wedding videographer is a photographers worst nightmare. Photographers know that they can be fired and a videographer can take their job. A photographer will always argue to go professional for the photo shoot and let Uncle Harry do the filming. Photographers think that they are the elite but I have always told a photographer that a high definition videographer is the elite of the elite. With my HD-Cam I can put together some pretty good frame grabs and make a nice photo album for my clients but since I'm limited to one megapixel the still photographer will still outgun me for blowups. However the newer HD cams are capable of producing 3 megapixel still images in full 3 CCD quality.

The point I'm trying to make is that video technology is rapidly catching up and the still photographer is no longer King in the resolution department. Still photographers know this and they know that their trade is dying. The smart still photographers are buying HD cams.
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Old July 1st, 2005, 12:05 PM   #14
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"Photographers think that they are the elite but I have always told a photographer that a high definition videographer is the elite of the elite. With my HD-Cam I can put together some pretty good frame grabs and make a nice photo album for my clients but since I'm limited to one megapixel the still photographer will still outgun me for blowups. However the newer HD cams are capable of producing 3 megapixel still images in full 3 CCD quality.

The point I'm trying to make is that video technology is rapidly catching up and the still photographer is no longer King in the resolution department. Still photographers know this and they know that their trade is dying. The smart still photographers are buying HD cams."

I feel i have to disagree here on afew points...
A high Def Video Producer is NOT elite of the elite. Im sorry but there is no such thing. Maybe if the footage captured is good enough to present to a client without edit manipulation, will it be passable as being PROFESSIONAL.
I know quite alot of camerapeople who work for different TV stations and theyre yet to touch a HD cam.. and put side by side to a Wedding producer using an FX1, i would put my money on them and theyre gear for a number of reasons.

With my DVX units, i can pull full frame grabs shot in progressive scan. With a couple of scanning tricks, I can get blow ups bugger than a3 and you wouldnt tell the difference whether it came from a film camera or a DV camera running Cinegamma. I dont do this often, but it IS possible to get higher res images than just using straight grabs... u just need a super high res scanner and an bloody expensive printer for ur proofs..

I agree that video technology is catching up, however it will only go so far as the delivery option, being that 1080i/p is the largest commercial frame size available at this time. Until video cameras can be purchased with 13 megapixel (yes, there are still cameras out there that do this) digital photography will always be there.

The wedding photographer will NEVER be obsolete. It will come close to certain clientelle, however the way Video Produciton has been marketted, has bought its value down.
Just the other day, i went in for a job which would land me 4 grand to shoot a wedding. The photographer however put forward 6 grand for his service. funny thing is half his work is outsourced to a lab. He doesnt have to capture and sift through 20hours worth of raw material, he doesnt have to mak sure music, titles and formats are all set, he doesnt have to process copious amounts of footage and pay for music licensing fees, god teh list goes on.. but WHY is he allowed to charge more for teh same job, if im doing the exact same thing, only that im using a differnt type of camera and delivery...
THATS my point.. and pretty much the point of all my other posts on this forum pertaining to the way this profession is seen..

Now i knew the photographer, hell, i was the one who refered the job to him, but the clients didnt blink an eyelid when he asked for 6k, but if i tried to charge that for video, I would have had to justify it.. much more than just showing them afew weddings and hoping that they feel its worth their while..

Videography is seen is the second choice. I have had countless last minute jobs come to me simply becuase people had not considered video. Its an afterthought. Its what they purchase when tehy figure there is some cash left over.. Obviously this isnt everyone, but its a major part of the mentality of OUR IMPORTANCE.. being that we arent too high up on their lists...

we need to change that..

Again i have to disagree with you on this next point, as i DONT believe Still photography is dying.. far from it.. its expanding as is its public awareness of its capabilites.

The difference however is that Marketting a video service cannot catch someones eye in a split second. It never will.
Photography can do this. It CAN stand out.. its usually one or two exceptional images which will either make or break a photographer when going for a job (if youve done photography in this industry, youll know what im talkin about.)
This is one reason i only use stills on my website and another reason why im considering going back to it..
If i can catch someones eye the way a photographer catches someone, i can then value my work based on photographic artistry, NOT video artistry...
The difference is whats in my back pocket at the end of the day.. the difference is the amount of time i spend on any one particular job, the difference is how much time i have left for my family...
And the difference, when u look at it from both sides... is HUGE...
People are happy to pay 6 grand for fotos, but cringe when thr video is close to that..
Its natural because it is what has been embedded into their minds from the history of "video"

If you want to know what brides really think, go and check out bridal forums where brides to be go and chat about their weddings.. its the best place to do any research..
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Old July 1st, 2005, 12:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy James
Actually a wedding videographer is a photographers worst nightmare. Photographers know that they can be fired and a videographer can take their job. A photographer will always argue to go professional for the photo shoot and let Uncle Harry do the filming. Photographers think that they are the elite but I have always told a photographer that a high definition videographer is the elite of the elite. With my HD-Cam I can put together some pretty good frame grabs and make a nice photo album for my clients but since I'm limited to one megapixel the still photographer will still outgun me for blowups. However the newer HD cams are capable of producing 3 megapixel still images in full 3 CCD quality.

The point I'm trying to make is that video technology is rapidly catching up and the still photographer is no longer King in the resolution department. Still photographers know this and they know that their trade is dying. The smart still photographers are buying HD cams.
Shows that you probably dont have any experience with either still photography and/or videography

The two mediums allthough similar in some ways are very different and require different equipment and different approaches.

The only one that would be scared of you and your video camera doing frame grabs would probably be aunt maggie because of the size of your video camera.

I dont understand why people are so much into who is more important, who is better, ...
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