2010 - Year of the Blu-Ray?

Marty Welk · December 21st, 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Varga

Any other hidden costs or time consuming tasks I need to consider?

My first concideration just like it was with my first DVD, is 100% compatability.
I will be making "burned" disks THEY will be watching "Glass Mastered" movies from massive quantity duplications. They (as usual) will not have the $200 blu-ray, they will have the $100 black friday special. Different calibrations and problems and cheap lazer lensing, and poor diode cooling and all that STUFF that can happen on thier side, will effect the Differences between My "Dye change" and the movies "Real Holes".

I will want 100% of my Blue-rays to play on 99% of the players without error, and just like DVD that will be my higher costs, time consuming tasks and issues.
Send out 100-500 Bwu-rays that fail on 10% of the players and I will end up with calls i dont need, and mabey even something i cant easily fix.

Great Thread, Blu-Ray has slipped down to affordability, opening up the market for blu-ray distribution wide, and it'll make a good present for those who had everything But one.
If they forked over bucks for a big LCD with "HD" capability, the only thing keeping them from a blu-ray was the 6times price over a normal dvd player. I really think more people will move on it now.

Tom Hardwick · December 22nd, 2009, 02:30 AM

Adam says, 'And even then many are convinced regular DVD is "good enough."
And so it is if ubiquity is important to you, your clients, their friends and relations. They may all have 1080 TVs and lots may also have Blu-ray players and if so, you can sleep easy in the thought that modern upscaling players are doing an amazing job for those with the kit. The client can then take the disc round to their aunt and know it will play letterboxed into her ancient CRT and play in her son's laptop.

Art Varga · December 22nd, 2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Welk

My first concideration just like it was with my first DVD, is 100% compatability.
I will be making "burned" disks THEY will be watching "Glass Mastered" movies from massive quantity duplications. They (as usual) will not have the $200 blu-ray, they will have the $100 black friday special.

This is a concern I have as well. I might consider purchasing one of those $79 Wallmart specials so I can test on both a high and low end player before shipping out my product.

Denny Lajeunesse · December 22nd, 2009, 09:56 AM

I remember when the $50 apex DVD player (circa 2001) could play burnt DVD's that high end sony's etc could not.

Noa Put · December 22nd, 2009, 10:18 AM

BR players are still quite expensive here so I don't expect many people running to stores to get one in 2010. Lcd, plasma and now led tv's are becoming a must have in every livingroom. Think that about 60% of my wedding clients had a new lcd tv in 2009 and none did owe a br player.
The tv and cable companies do push hd recorders that can show hd content and we can hire hd movies that can be streamed right from their servers, price is still 50% more expensive to order a HD or a SD movie. We have a few standard HD channels but for most you have to pay extra.
As been mentioned here a dvdplayer with upscale technologie can make a visual difference if looked at from a distance, even up to the point were it's hard to tell if you are looking at HD or SD footage, I only use Tmpgenc to transcode HD footage to SD dvd and it looks great on an upscale dvd player and lcd screen. We as videographer will see the difference but most clients won't.
Therefore since this year I have been delivering the HD footage as well as seperate mpeg2 1080p files to my clients at no extra charge so they can use then as back up and as a source to transfer to BR when they are ready for it.
In the meantime they can look at their wedding in HD on their laptop, which most have now, and they are happy with it. And happy clients give good comments to others about you:)

Also one thing I would fear when going to BR is compatibilty, I also noticed more problems on high end dvd players compared to the very cheap ones, I have a real cheap player here with a name I never heared of and it plays everything I trow at it. if that would be an issue on BR players it would be a very expensive problem if you have to re-burn a BR disk to get it to play right.

Adam Gold · December 22nd, 2009, 12:01 PM

Tom, your point is very well-taken. I don't see a time (at least not soon, if ever) when we'd send out only BD and not DVD as well. Even in our household, and I'm a BD whore, not every TV set is HDTV or has a BD player attached, so a dual-disc package would make sense for us. As much as I'd love to have the BD version of every movie I buy (which really actually isn't that many) I always have to think, okay, who'll be watching this and on what player/TV?

Chris Davis · December 22nd, 2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Cossel

People 'should' pay more for a better product that requires more time and expertise to create.

But that product does not require more time and expertise. The blank disks cost more and that's about it. I upgraded to HD equipment because it was a natural evolution (i.e. when I needed a new camera, I bought HD and when I needed a new computer I bought one with a blu-ray burner.) Unless the client wants SD for compatibility reasons, I always shoot and edit in HD.

"Quality" isn't an upgrade for me. I believe a good business person should always deliver the best quality they can.

Travis Cossel · December 22nd, 2009, 02:27 PM

Chris, we can agree to disagree if you'd like, but I personally think it's naive business practice to upgrade your equipment, techniques, knowledge, software, etc. and not factor those costs into a creating additional profit. As you get better at what you do you SHOULD make more money. This is how it generally works in other businesses, so I don't understand why videographers tend to sell themselves short and just give new technology and better quality away for free. Actually, I do understand. Many videographers run their business like you would run a hobby, probably because many of them started off doing it as a hobby.

I also disagree with the idea that a 'good' business person will always just deliver the best quality they can. Wal-Mart could sell products that were much higher quality, but they have chosen to serve a target market that prefers lower prices and will accept lower quality to get those lower prices. Wal-Mart isn't a bad business for doing this. If anything they're a good business because they're supplying products priced where some people want them.

We always strive to deliver the best product we can, but that doesn't mean we're going to do it for free. It's admirable to just deliver the best quality for the good of your client and not make more money doing so, but it doesn't make good business sense in my opinion. Charge what you're worth.

Chris Davis · December 22nd, 2009, 04:39 PM

The Wal-Mart analogy doesn't work because they are selling different products, so I'll ignore that.

You and I have different viewpoints because you view SD as the baseline, and HD is an upgrade. I consider HD as the baseline - if the client wants delivery on DVD that's fine, but I'm still shooting and editing in HD. So if it helps you understand my business model better - everybody pays for HD.

I don't know how you got the idea that I don't factor my equipment and technology upgrades into my price.

Travis Cossel · December 22nd, 2009, 04:58 PM

Sorry, my intention for the Wal-Mart analogy was based on the fact that they have chosen to not provide the best quality and instead try to provide the best price. In the wedding video industry there are companies that want to offer the best product and those that want to offer the best price. Your comment that a "good business person should always deliver the best quality" is why I brought up the Wal-Mart example. I was showing that being a "good business person" doesn't hinge on them providing the best quality. I hope that makes better sense now.

I would disagree that HD is the proper baseline for delivery. The percentage of people out there with BluRay players is still very small. The percentage of people out there with standard DVD players is huge. Like it or not, they ARE the baseline still. Now if you want to consider HD as the baseline for YOUR studio, then I have no argument with that. More power to you. d;-)

I don't know anything about your pricing and your method for determining it other than what you've posted here. I apologize if I've gotten the wrong idea, but it very much sounds to me like you upgraded your studio to HD and just substituted it in for SD because that is your new baseline. You made no mention of raising your prices to compensate for the upgrade investment, and in fact, you seemed against the idea of charging more because newer technology was involved. You stated that upgrading to HD was a "natural evolution" for you and that "quality isn't an upgrade" for you. So that's where I'm getting this. If I'm wrong, and you did raise your package prices when you upgraded to HD, then by all means let me know. I would applaud you. d;-)

I just see so many examples of studios that run their business like a hobby. They buy new toys, upgrade software, etc. and never take those costs into consideration. It hurts those businesses .. and in the long run, it also hurts our industry because you have all of these studios with sub-par pricing because they're running an expensive hobby and not a business.

Marty Welk · December 22nd, 2009, 05:42 PM

JUST JOKING about the wall-mart analogy, anyone ever send thier camera masters to china to have them edited for way less money per hour, then have them make the dvds and blu-rays that dont work and break in 30 days .
Now there is a business model that would pull a tidy profit :-)

Michael Ojjeh · December 22nd, 2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Cossel

I just see so many examples of studios that run their business like a hobby. They buy new toys, upgrade software, etc. and never take those costs into consideration. It hurts those businesses .. and in the long run, it also hurts our industry because you have all of these studios with sub-par pricing because they're running an expensive hobby and not a business.

Travis, I have to disagree with you on this, I do run my studio as an expensive hobby, but I will never under-price my work just because it is a hobby, it is the other way around, most studios in my area that makes a living of videography charges a lot less then I do because they have to feed their family and even some of them don't have the money to upgrade to HD. where on the other hand I don't take the job if the price is not right I can afford to be picky and I always ran my business that way.

Philip Howells · December 23rd, 2009, 01:13 AM

Travis, I've never understood the economic logic in waiting to upgrade, with the single, occasional situation when first is worst.

Otherwise, the early adopters get best prices for their "old" equipment and a head start in the new marketplace.

Although we all know the quality isn't the same, most consumers are buying cameras which claim to be "full HD". In my view it's simply Luddite to argue that because adequate DVDs can be shot with SD, there's no sense in upgrading.

Michael, I do agree with not buying the latest upgrade or software package or gizmo which is why I still edit with Liquid but anyone who runs their business as a hobby must have a very benign bank manager.

Travis Cossel · December 23rd, 2009, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Ojjeh

Travis, I have to disagree with you on this, I do run my studio as an expensive hobby, but I will never under-price my work just because it is a hobby, it is the other way around, most studios in my area that makes a living of videography charges a lot less then I do because they have to feed their family and even some of them don't have the money to upgrade to HD. where on the other hand I don't take the job if the price is not right I can afford to be picky and I always ran my business that way.

I'd say you were the exception then. Most of the time when someone is running their business like it's a hobby, they aren't factoring all of their time and costs and charging appropriately. Be proud that you're an exception. d;-)

As for the other studios not charging enough because they need to feed their families .. I guess I don't get that. If I need to feed my family, it's even more important to charge what I'm worth .. at least that's my thinking.

Simon Denny · December 23rd, 2009, 01:49 AM

Well, I have a wedding due out to BR and now I have to find a solution and a cheep one for Mac. The prices here in Australia are over the top, both for players and burners. We wont see a drop here in price for some time. From now on it's SD all the way but shot in HD.

Merry Xmas

December 22nd, 2009, 12:01 PM	#21
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Tom, your point is very well-taken. I don't see a time (at least not soon, if ever) when we'd send out only BD and not DVD as well. Even in our household, and I'm a BD whore, not every TV set is HDTV or has a BD player attached, so a dual-disc package would make sense for us. As much as I'd love to have the BD version of every movie I buy (which really actually isn't that many) I always have to think, okay, who'll be watching this and on what player/TV? __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

December 22nd, 2009, 02:27 PM	#23
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Chris, we can agree to disagree if you'd like, but I personally think it's naive business practice to upgrade your equipment, techniques, knowledge, software, etc. and not factor those costs into a creating additional profit. As you get better at what you do you SHOULD make more money. This is how it generally works in other businesses, so I don't understand why videographers tend to sell themselves short and just give new technology and better quality away for free. Actually, I do understand. Many videographers run their business like you would run a hobby, probably because many of them started off doing it as a hobby. I also disagree with the idea that a 'good' business person will always just deliver the best quality they can. Wal-Mart could sell products that were much higher quality, but they have chosen to serve a target market that prefers lower prices and will accept lower quality to get those lower prices. Wal-Mart isn't a bad business for doing this. If anything they're a good business because they're supplying products priced where some people want them. We always strive to deliver the best product we can, but that doesn't mean we're going to do it for free. It's admirable to just deliver the best quality for the good of your client and not make more money doing so, but it doesn't make good business sense in my opinion. Charge what you're worth. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

December 22nd, 2009, 04:58 PM	#25
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Sorry, my intention for the Wal-Mart analogy was based on the fact that they have chosen to not provide the best quality and instead try to provide the best price. In the wedding video industry there are companies that want to offer the best product and those that want to offer the best price. Your comment that a "good business person should always deliver the best quality" is why I brought up the Wal-Mart example. I was showing that being a "good business person" doesn't hinge on them providing the best quality. I hope that makes better sense now. I would disagree that HD is the proper baseline for delivery. The percentage of people out there with BluRay players is still very small. The percentage of people out there with standard DVD players is huge. Like it or not, they ARE the baseline still. Now if you want to consider HD as the baseline for YOUR studio, then I have no argument with that. More power to you. d;-) I don't know anything about your pricing and your method for determining it other than what you've posted here. I apologize if I've gotten the wrong idea, but it very much sounds to me like you upgraded your studio to HD and just substituted it in for SD because that is your new baseline. You made no mention of raising your prices to compensate for the upgrade investment, and in fact, you seemed against the idea of charging more because newer technology was involved. You stated that upgrading to HD was a "natural evolution" for you and that "quality isn't an upgrade" for you. So that's where I'm getting this. If I'm wrong, and you did raise your package prices when you upgraded to HD, then by all means let me know. I would applaud you. d;-) I just see so many examples of studios that run their business like a hobby. They buy new toys, upgrade software, etc. and never take those costs into consideration. It hurts those businesses .. and in the long run, it also hurts our industry because you have all of these studios with sub-par pricing because they're running an expensive hobby and not a business. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

December 22nd, 2009, 05:42 PM	#26
Marty Welk Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: East Bay Cali Posts: 563	JUST JOKING about the wall-mart analogy, anyone ever send thier camera masters to china to have them edited for way less money per hour, then have them make the dvds and blu-rays that dont work and break in 30 days . Now there is a business model that would pull a tidy profit :-) __________________ ----------------sig----------------- Re-learning everything all over again, one more time.

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December 22nd, 2009, 02:30 AM	#17
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Adam says, 'And even then many are convinced regular DVD is "good enough." And so it is if ubiquity is important to you, your clients, their friends and relations. They may all have 1080 TVs and lots may also have Blu-ray players and if so, you can sleep easy in the thought that modern upscaling players are doing an amazing job for those with the kit. The client can then take the disc round to their aunt and know it will play letterboxed into her ancient CRT and play in her son's laptop.

December 22nd, 2009, 09:56 AM	#19
Denny Lajeunesse Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kelowna, BC [Canada, Eh!] Posts: 257	I remember when the $50 apex DVD player (circa 2001) could play burnt DVD's that high end sony's etc could not.

December 22nd, 2009, 10:18 AM	#20
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	BR players are still quite expensive here so I don't expect many people running to stores to get one in 2010. Lcd, plasma and now led tv's are becoming a must have in every livingroom. Think that about 60% of my wedding clients had a new lcd tv in 2009 and none did owe a br player. The tv and cable companies do push hd recorders that can show hd content and we can hire hd movies that can be streamed right from their servers, price is still 50% more expensive to order a HD or a SD movie. We have a few standard HD channels but for most you have to pay extra. As been mentioned here a dvdplayer with upscale technologie can make a visual difference if looked at from a distance, even up to the point were it's hard to tell if you are looking at HD or SD footage, I only use Tmpgenc to transcode HD footage to SD dvd and it looks great on an upscale dvd player and lcd screen. We as videographer will see the difference but most clients won't. Therefore since this year I have been delivering the HD footage as well as seperate mpeg2 1080p files to my clients at no extra charge so they can use then as back up and as a source to transfer to BR when they are ready for it. In the meantime they can look at their wedding in HD on their laptop, which most have now, and they are happy with it. And happy clients give good comments to others about you:) Also one thing I would fear when going to BR is compatibilty, I also noticed more problems on high end dvd players compared to the very cheap ones, I have a real cheap player here with a name I never heared of and it plays everything I trow at it. if that would be an issue on BR players it would be a very expensive problem if you have to re-burn a BR disk to get it to play right.

December 22nd, 2009, 04:39 PM	#24
Chris Davis Trustee Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Willmar, MN Posts: 1,400	The Wal-Mart analogy doesn't work because they are selling different products, so I'll ignore that. You and I have different viewpoints because you view SD as the baseline, and HD is an upgrade. I consider HD as the baseline - if the client wants delivery on DVD that's fine, but I'm still shooting and editing in HD. So if it helps you understand my business model better - everybody pays for HD. I don't know how you got the idea that I don't factor my equipment and technology upgrades into my price.

December 23rd, 2009, 01:13 AM	#28
Philip Howells Trustee Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,212	Travis, I've never understood the economic logic in waiting to upgrade, with the single, occasional situation when first is worst. Otherwise, the early adopters get best prices for their "old" equipment and a head start in the new marketplace. Although we all know the quality isn't the same, most consumers are buying cameras which claim to be "full HD". In my view it's simply Luddite to argue that because adequate DVDs can be shot with SD, there's no sense in upgrading. Michael, I do agree with not buying the latest upgrade or software package or gizmo which is why I still edit with Liquid but anyone who runs their business as a hobby must have a very benign bank manager.

December 23rd, 2009, 01:49 AM	#30
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Well, I have a wedding due out to BR and now I have to find a solution and a cheep one for Mac. The prices here in Australia are over the top, both for players and burners. We wont see a drop here in price for some time. From now on it's SD all the way but shot in HD. Merry Xmas