"Our video budget depends on what's left after we hire our photographer ..."

Philip Howells · February 15th, 2011, 01:03 AM

Craig, I'm not sure I'd phrase it as clear cut or as comprehensively as you do but there's much in what you write.

For example we don't put video on the web because no web video does justice to our work, just as it can't do justice to the top end photographer's work. That doesn't mean we're anti-web, far from it. I think it's our most potent advertising and promotional medium and to that end we've reduced our wedding fair attendance to just the most important ones and our print advertising to nil. Of course things improve all the time and I confess that it's already reached the point where most people don't caption their vimeo clips "web quality only" and sooner or later I shall be seduced into showing clips.

I disagree with your contention that photography has stood still. If it has it's only because the photographers and their market (for we all have to develop our markets) have allowed it to be. I wrote somewhere else recently that I'm surprised there isn't an app for an iPad that allows photographers to produce iPad wedding albums replete with music and sound recorded of the key moments eg the vows, speeches etc. (My photographer pal will laugh when he reads this - me using terms like app and iPad like I knew what I was talking about!)

Kelly, I'm appalled - no deposit in the world is enough to sweeten that sort of behaviour.

Michael Simons · February 15th, 2011, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Parkes

I am not in the wedding videography game - but I would have thought that the internet would be a huge boon for you guys, compared to a still photographer.

Whereas stills photographers big advantage is that they can go to high quality print, this is probably happening less and less while the rest of the elements of high quality still photography remain relatively unchanged by the web.

The fact that wedding videos can now be distributed online and thus very easily shown to family and friends all around the world whereas before sending out DVDs etc would have been considerably more hassle must make it a positive growth area for you guys.

Just curious if this is a growing selling point when competing/comparing your services against still photographers?

Although I can show a quick 4 minute video clip online, it's still not comparable to seeing the entire DVD chaptered menu that I can show on a 55 inch monitor.

Dave Blackhurst · February 15th, 2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Huffaker

I was booked for a wedding to do video in the Spring time. They chose my mid package which is about $1,500......HOWEVER..........yesterday I got an email from the couple telling me that they wanted to cancel my services because they wanted to use that money to hire a second Photographer in addition to their OVERPRICED $7,000 out-of-town Photographer. Give me a #$%& break! The $7,000 photographer doesn't have a second shooter?!? I asked what the reason was, and they said because its gonna be a huge wedding, and they don't want to miss a thing........and that video was just an afterthought. Wow people!

Thought #1 -
WHEW, dondged a bullet on that one... don't need the potential bald spots!

Thought #2 -
Ask them if they'd rather have 30 frames per second with sound (that might just catch most everything?), or 5-10 frames here and there... with a "budget photog", that should be an extra 100-200 shots, or about 1-4 seconds worth of video...

Thought #3 -
And I suppose they want their deposit back... hope your contract specified "deposits not refundable, as it retains your specific date, and we cannot book other clients once you've signed your CONTRACT".

John Knight · February 16th, 2011, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Howells

For example we don't put video on the web because no web video does justice to our work....

Insane. Philip - brides want to see your work..... NOW! Get some demos on your website! Now. No excuses.

Nigel Barker · February 16th, 2011, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Parkes

I am not in the wedding videography game - but I would have thought that the internet would be a huge boon for you guys, compared to a still photographer.

Whereas stills photographers big advantage is that they can go to high quality print, this is probably happening less and less while the rest of the elements of high quality still photography remain relatively unchanged by the web.

The fact that wedding videos can now be distributed online and thus very easily shown to family and friends all around the world whereas before sending out DVDs etc would have been considerably more hassle must make it a positive growth area for you guys.

Just curious if this is a growing selling point when competing/comparing your services against still photographers?

The problem for any video not just wedding video has been that the physical product just hasn't been very compelling. Shiny disks have replaced VHS tape but even in a nice box they are a bit ho hum. Photographers can offer a wide selection of albums & different sized prints but most importantly they can all be viewed without any special equipment. The Internet, mobile devices (phones, iPad etc) are now enabling any video to be available anywhere at any time as the special equipment is all around us & not so special any more.

Wayne Faulkner · February 16th, 2011, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Simons

Although I can show a quick 4 minute video clip online, it's still not comparable to seeing the entire DVD chaptered menu that I can show on a 55 inch monitor.

Such a dated view. I mean 720/704x480 on a 55 inch 1080P screen looks good? Even upscaling doesn't do that justice.

For the negligible price difference, why aren't you also chaptering to Blu-ray?

On YouTube, 720P is available for a 10 minute free demo!

Why invest all that money in 1080P video cameras and then commit the sin of putting it all on DVD instead of Blu-ray? As an amateur, if there's anything I want to really keep, it's on both media, to preserve the image resolution as well as the playing options.

Noel Lising · February 16th, 2011, 09:16 AM

Craig, I hope you did get a deposit for that wedding. I usually charge a 25% non-refundable fee to hold the date. They are being rude by telling you up front why the canceled on you. No sugar coating whatsoever. Unless the photographer is Gene Higa, $7K is a lot of money, and he usually have a 2nd shooter in tow.

Craig Terott · February 16th, 2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Knight

Insane. Philip - brides want to see your work..... NOW! Get some demos on your website! Now. No excuses.

Total agreement John. If "it does no justice to our work" was an empirical truth for every videographer, would anyone on planet earth agree with your statement after viewing Jason Magbanua's video blog?? I think not. You can look at look at Jason's videos on the web and make a boat load of conclusions regarding style, expertise, and talent. Despite the web presentation (which i think is very good), all of those conclusions are overwhelmingly positive.

No video on-line may cause Brides to draw a negative conclusion ...if they even bother to dig far enough and make the extra effort to see it! I bet more than 75% of brides that click on your site, see no video, then just move on the the videographer that does show video. In her mind, she just saved herself a bunch of time. :)

Michael Simons · February 16th, 2011, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Faulkner

Such a dated view. I mean 720/704x480 on a 55 inch 1080P screen looks good? Even upscaling doesn't do that justice.

For the negligible price difference, why aren't you also chaptering to Blu-ray?

On YouTube, 720P is available for a 10 minute free demo!

Why invest all that money in 1080P video cameras and then commit the sin of putting it all on DVD instead of Blu-ray? As an amateur, if there's anything I want to really keep, it's on both media, to preserve the image resolution as well as the playing options.

Brides aren't asking for Blu Ray. I'm booked every weekend and I'm the most expensive 1 man show in the area.

Dave Blackhurst · February 16th, 2011, 03:12 PM

Michael (and Phil too) -

Technology moves forward - you either move with it, or become irrelevant, maybe not now, but over time...

The options to display your work over the web may not be "perfect", but there are ways to put up HD samples that will "show" enough to get the calls coming in so you can show your best work. Short attention span theater it is, but if you can "sell the sizzle", it should draw in potential clients.

As far as "demand" for BR, it's time to deal with the changeover - you can't buy an SD TV... HDTV is IT.

BR players (and burners, since you'll need one) have broken the $100 mark rather vigorously - I'm not sure whether you'll be able to buy a "DVD" player for much longer, the economics are rapidly shifting to favor a BR that also plays DVD's while upconverting, offering streaming, etc...

BR movies are already coming up at pricing equal to DVD... and they DO look better, especially since they likely are now being shown on a large HDTV screen. The customer expectations will be higher, even if they are absolutely clueless as to the technology (which I find is actually pretty common). You don't want to be the guy demo'ing fuzzy video...

I only offer this as a suggestion, that this year is the year the technology is becoming too cheap to NOT make the investment, even if you've held back (as I have!).

Michael Bray · February 16th, 2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Simons

Brides aren't asking for Blu Ray. I'm booked every weekend and I'm the most expensive 1 man show in the area.

Brides aren't asking for Blu-ray because most don't know any better...that's exactly why i educate them briefly on the subject and make sure every package we offer includes a Blu-ray / DVD combo pack. After hearing my schpeel, and finding out they get their finished product on both formats, I would say 8 out of 10 brides I talk with end up booking on the spot because my competiors simply don't offer it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

You don't want to be the guy demo'ing fuzzy video...

Yet another reason we get a lot of bookings at bridal shows. We're the only video guys that showcase our work via Blu-ray on two 40" TVs. Our competition in most cases shows their work on small screens or in a few cases...plays their DVD on a 40-50" screen which looks very soft and slightly fuzzy. Brides really do notice the difference when they see the comparison and typically re-visit our booth to book with us.

I'm not saying you can't be sucessful by not offering Blu-ray...far from it, I'm simply saying that we've embraced the change and are now able to use it to our advantage...and in our market it's definitely working.

Mike

Michael Simons · February 16th, 2011, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Michael (and Phil too) -

Technology moves forward - you either move with it, or become irrelevant, maybe not now, but over time...

The options to display your work over the web may not be "perfect", but there are ways to put up HD samples that will "show" enough to get the calls coming in so you can show your best work. Short attention span theater it is, but if you can "sell the sizzle", it should draw in potential clients.

As far as "demand" for BR, it's time to deal with the changeover - you can't buy an SD TV... HDTV is IT.

BR players (and burners, since you'll need one) have broken the $100 mark rather vigorously - I'm not sure whether you'll be able to buy a "DVD" player for much longer, the economics are rapidly shifting to favor a BR that also plays DVD's while upconverting, offering streaming, etc...

BR movies are already coming up at pricing equal to DVD... and they DO look better, especially since they likely are now being shown on a large HDTV screen. The customer expectations will be higher, even if they are absolutely clueless as to the technology (which I find is actually pretty common). You don't want to be the guy demo'ing fuzzy video...

I only offer this as a suggestion, that this year is the year the technology is becoming too cheap to NOT make the investment, even if you've held back (as I have!).

hey Dave. Supply and Demand. I'm not seeing the demand.

Gabe Strong · February 16th, 2011, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Simons

hey Dave. Supply and Demand. I'm not seeing the demand.

Yup, and THAT is what is most important. No offense intended to anyone here, but anyone 'on the
internet' can't accurately tell you how to best run your business, if they are not in your market.
I've tried and tried to sell HD production....I can't. Everyone wants a DVD, and once they
find out a Blu Ray WON'T play in their DVD player they don't want it. I have had ONE HD production
in the last two years, and that was a corporate job for the US Government. So I will just keep using
my paid for SD gear, renting HD gear if I ever get an HD job, until I start getting demand for it.
To upgrade your computer, camera, NLE software (which usually means you have to upgrade all
plug ins as well) is not cheap. If I can make money off it, I'm all for it. But I'm running a business
and I need to make enough to pay the mortgage, groceries and so on, and every dollar I spend
on upgrading gear, better help me make more money. And no matter what anyone on the internet says,
it won't help me make money in my market at this time. I know......I live here, I offer HD production here
and clients don't want it (yet). To claim that you 'have' to do it or become irrelevant or to claim that
people will chose it once they are 'educated'.....ignores the fact that different areas of the country
(and world) are different! Trust me, I have gone the 'education' route on my clients (I even volunteer
and teach classes on video production at local schools, Small Business Development Center, local
University and so on...) all to try to get out the benefits of HD production! And in MY market at this
time.....NO ONE CARES! They just want a DVD that will play in their existing DVD player.

Steven Davis · February 16th, 2011, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

.....
Thought #3 -
And I suppose they want their deposit back... hope your contract specified "deposits not refundable, as it retains your specific date, and we cannot book other clients once you've signed your CONTRACT".

Amen and Amen Dave.

Steve Bleasdale · February 16th, 2011, 05:20 PM

well said + 2. i decided to go hd, got the cams, got the pc high spec, got the discs, dooooh no one wants it. errrrrrrrrr 10,000k spent, whoops big mistake.....

February 16th, 2011, 09:16 AM	#37
Noel Lising Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 789	Craig, I hope you did get a deposit for that wedding. I usually charge a 25% non-refundable fee to hold the date. They are being rude by telling you up front why the canceled on you. No sugar coating whatsoever. Unless the photographer is Gene Higa, $7K is a lot of money, and he usually have a 2nd shooter in tow. __________________ Noel Lising

February 15th, 2011, 01:03 AM	#31
Philip Howells Trustee Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,212	Craig, I'm not sure I'd phrase it as clear cut or as comprehensively as you do but there's much in what you write. For example we don't put video on the web because no web video does justice to our work, just as it can't do justice to the top end photographer's work. That doesn't mean we're anti-web, far from it. I think it's our most potent advertising and promotional medium and to that end we've reduced our wedding fair attendance to just the most important ones and our print advertising to nil. Of course things improve all the time and I confess that it's already reached the point where most people don't caption their vimeo clips "web quality only" and sooner or later I shall be seduced into showing clips. I disagree with your contention that photography has stood still. If it has it's only because the photographers and their market (for we all have to develop our markets) have allowed it to be. I wrote somewhere else recently that I'm surprised there isn't an app for an iPad that allows photographers to produce iPad wedding albums replete with music and sound recorded of the key moments eg the vows, speeches etc. (My photographer pal will laugh when he reads this - me using terms like app and iPad like I knew what I was talking about!) Kelly, I'm appalled - no deposit in the world is enough to sweeten that sort of behaviour.

February 16th, 2011, 03:12 PM	#40
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Michael (and Phil too) - Technology moves forward - you either move with it, or become irrelevant, maybe not now, but over time... The options to display your work over the web may not be "perfect", but there are ways to put up HD samples that will "show" enough to get the calls coming in so you can show your best work. Short attention span theater it is, but if you can "sell the sizzle", it should draw in potential clients. As far as "demand" for BR, it's time to deal with the changeover - you can't buy an SD TV... HDTV is IT. BR players (and burners, since you'll need one) have broken the $100 mark rather vigorously - I'm not sure whether you'll be able to buy a "DVD" player for much longer, the economics are rapidly shifting to favor a BR that also plays DVD's while upconverting, offering streaming, etc... BR movies are already coming up at pricing equal to DVD... and they DO look better, especially since they likely are now being shown on a large HDTV screen. The customer expectations will be higher, even if they are absolutely clueless as to the technology (which I find is actually pretty common). You don't want to be the guy demo'ing fuzzy video... I only offer this as a suggestion, that this year is the year the technology is becoming too cheap to NOT make the investment, even if you've held back (as I have!).

February 16th, 2011, 05:20 PM	#45
Steve Bleasdale Trustee Join Date: May 2010 Location: England liverpool Posts: 1,343	well said + 2. i decided to go hd, got the cams, got the pc high spec, got the discs, dooooh no one wants it. errrrrrrrrr 10,000k spent, whoops big mistake.....