12 min record?

Amanda Duncan · February 14th, 2011, 10:04 AM

Chris Harding....tell me about your HMC80? I've eyeballed that camera for a while now. I'm going to get eaten alive for this, but I want to do some steady cam work and not sure how shoulder mount will work with weight limits and is just as easily balanced?

Everyone else...I'm thinking about trying a little of both just to see what I like. If I go the safe way and have some video cams, it's a sure thing, for the most part that I will get the footage I need. With the DSLR, I can kind of play around and just get used to it and use what what looks good. After a while I will know what I wanna do, so I'm thinking about trying both. Worse case scenerio I end up with cool equipment that is there when I need it.

But, if I go both ways....what about mixing footage? Is there a video cam/dslr combination that is a close match? A canon vid and a canon dslr or panasonic and panasonic? Is it that simple or is it just different all the way around the board? Thanx guys...me

Greg Fiske · February 14th, 2011, 10:26 AM

Also, if 12 minute limit is a problem, install magic lantern on a canon to auto resume recording.

Mark Von Lanken · February 14th, 2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Actually, no. Not really. The GH2 is not a DSLR because it lacks three things...

...The GH series and similar camera types, since they lack an optical viewfinder,
mirror and penta-prism are therefore not SLRs by any stretch of the imagination.
Instead they are much more accurately described as Electronic Viewfinder -
Interchangeable Lens (EVIL) cameras.

Hi Chris,

That was a great explanation. Having shot with SLRs in the 70s and 80 I knew what SLR stood for and I knew that the GH2 and AF100 were not DSLRs, even though people refer to them as such. I have heard Canon shooters refer to the GH2 as EVIL, but I just thought it was because the GH2 does some things better than Canon DSLRs. ;-) Now I know what EVIL really stands for.

Chris Hurd · February 14th, 2011, 11:49 AM

It's an interesting acronym, no doubt. I certainly don't want
to give the impression that I carry any bias against the EVIL
concept -- frankly, I think it's a much better way to go than
D-SLR in terms of HD video recording. After all, the three
things that make an SLR what it is (the mirror, the optical
viewfinder and the penta-prism) are completely useless on
a D-SLR when it's in Live View mode recording HD video.

My prediction is that we're about to see a major industry
shift in the HD acquisition market, away from D-SLR toward
EVIL (where it belongs, in my opinion). The Panasonic GH1
and GH2 are simply the first generations of the next big trend
in low-cost, affordable HD acquisition. Frankly I can't wait.

Philip Howells · February 14th, 2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Simons

(snipped) The vows only last 3 minutes, nothing is happening before the vows. The Priest is directing the bride and groom where to stand. Do you really leave this in the final edit also??

Michael if this really is all the priest is saying then fair enough, but here both the church and civil ceremonies have important contractual elements before the vows. Now, the bride may not want them but to decide before you shoot you're not going to give her the option is setting yourself up for a problem.

I've just finished an edit in which with your technique I would have missed a priceless gem. The groom is English, his bride Nigerian. When asked if she'll take him as her husband, she half turned to him, cheated her head as if appraising the goods, before averring "I will". It raised a huge laugh, gave that part of the ceremony a unique hook and was talked about through the breakfast. If I'd missed it because we weren't running cameras, I would have been a big disappointment to my clients.

Danny's using cameras in sequence which means he's doing at least part of his edit in the cameras - fine as long as he's happy with the technique.

Greg, I'm unfamiliar with Magic Lantern but unless it produces seamless, field-accurate joints like Sony's software then it's a nix. Sorry.

Perhaps the main issue is that I come from a video background. I learned part of this business directing programmes in a gallery, which is the environment three multicammed video cameras give me in weddings. If a discourteous photographer stands in my eyeline then I have a wide or a reaction shot to cut to until he moves. I'll be as mad as was when I saw Taky's recent debacle but I don't have to lose sleep over it.

But Amanda, Danny is right in repeating the core advice you've now been given over three topics - what suits me, or Danny, or Chris, or Greg, or Michael still may not suit you exactly. And now you want to mix footage from single, big chip cameras with material from three smaller chips. Light blue touch paper and stand back.

Michael Simons · February 14th, 2011, 01:25 PM

Why would I have missed this? I would have been recording once they were set in position. I'm talking about the few seconds where the priest is "jockeying" them into their standing position before they recite their vows. Usually, after the priest gives the homily, he takes a few seconds to walk from the lecturn to the center of the aisle. He then positions the bride and groom to the area where they will face each other. You record all this and put it on their master edit? I simply hit the stop/start button at this point..Bam!..a new 12 minutes!

Michael Simons · February 14th, 2011, 01:40 PM

Amanda, every experienced DSLR user on here has used conventional video camera's. I used them for 17 years and now I shoot DSLR for over a year. So I have experience on both sides of the fence. The problem on this forum is that videographers that have never used DSLRs are knocking them. I think taking advice from someone that has never used something can be quite foolish. You can record an hour long Catholic Mass on a 12 minute DSLR. I know, I do it every weekend by myself with no other cameramen. If I was missing anything important, I'd be out of a job.

Philip Howells · February 14th, 2011, 01:49 PM

Michael, there are many things in life I've not tried but which I'm prepared to bet a pound to a penny wouldn't suit me.

Brian Drysdale · February 14th, 2011, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Howells

Michael, I'm sure you write as you find, but for serious documentary video programme makers 12 minutes maximum duration is a joke.

Just being able to start up again at a touch of a button isn't a big deal. Many very serious docs have been shot on 16mm film and there you've got 10 mins on each magazine and it takes 10 seconds to change if you're ready to switch mags.

Claire Buckley · February 14th, 2011, 02:17 PM

Sorry Brian, have to disagree. Remember World in Action? I do...

By the time it takes to change that mag (assuming you werent on your last mag that is) the 10 seconds on which the story resides could lay in between the ether somewhere.

So, to have 60 minute's worth of recordable media you had to have 6 fully loaded Arri mags in tow. But your able camera assistant could be relied upon to dodge any bullets in the latest war zone to make sure your footage was of the most contemporaneous in nature.

Boy, was Ray Fitzwalter glad when more portable video came along. Then of course with 16mm you had to wait to get your rushes back from the chemists - Humphries Labs - that's assuming there wasn't a hair in the gate or the bath batch wasn't renewed.

It was never as simple as that... believe me...

:)

Spiros Zaharakis · February 14th, 2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

The GH2 is not a DSLR because it lacks three things
a DSLR must have in order to qualify as a DSLR: a
mirror, a penta-prism and an optical viewfinder.

Hey Chris, I know that technicaly it is not a DSLR, I used the term for simplicity reasons. I don't think Amanda should care if it is a DSLR or an EVIL camera, the main differencies from regular video cameras are the same anyway (handling, shallow DOF, image quality).

Thanks for correcting me though.

Michael Simons · February 14th, 2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Howells

Michael, there are many things in life I've not tried but which I'm prepared to bet a pound to a penny wouldn't suit me.

That's a shame. You could be missing out on something great but you'd never know.

Philip Howells · February 14th, 2011, 02:36 PM

Brian, as someone who had to change Arri mags whilst sitting on the side of a helicopter at a Navy ship or sub launch, hoping that it wouldn't happen during the change, I know you're right - but if I'd had to shoot weddings on an Arri well I wouldn't be shooting weddings.

Michael, I was including non-video things also.

Brian Drysdale · February 14th, 2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claire Buckley

Sorry Brian, have to disagree. Remember World in Action? I do...

By the time it takes to change that mag (assuming you werent on your last mag that is) the 10 seconds on which the story resides could lay in between the ether somewhere.

So, to have 60 minute's worth of recordable media you had to have 6 fully loaded Arri mags in tow. But your able camera assistant could be relied upon to dodge any bullets in the latest war zone to make sure your footage was of the most contemporaneous in nature.

Oh, I've had that it's about to a happen moment many times. Although you don't really need 1 hour tapes, the 30 min beta tapes are fine for running time. No matter what you're shooting on that most interesting line seems to come just when you're about to run out, but strangely you mostly tend to just catch it, Batteries are another time limiting item.

I think it depends on the nature of the production which works best. However, the point I'm making is that hitting a button to open a new file isn't really a big deal in the scheme of things.

Chris Harding · February 14th, 2011, 05:44 PM

Hi Guys
Wow!! Lively discussion here and I'm impressed that everyone is also being civil about it too (Maybe cos Chris Hurd has joined in???) There will always be differences of opinion and the DSLR (and EVIL) camps will usually be "at war" with the video camp (but in a friendly way, of course. I think it's much like our passionate "Ford vs Holden (GM)" people in Australia!!! To switch vehicle camps here is unheard of and once you are a fan you stay on that side of the fence for life. Surely it's also personal choice?????

Amanda??? I don't want to influence you either but remember I was weaned on shoulder-mount cams and find that I just cannot adjust to tiny beasts when it comes to stability (probably that's why I haven't gravitated to DSLR's!!!) I have just received a HMC80 and I'm pretty happy with it....it has some new extra features which will make life simple for me too. However bear in mind that with the Rode mic and receiver pack added you are carrying over 8lbs of camera!!! Yes, I use it on my stedicam without any issues at all and it works fine (a smaller camera would probably be easier to fly but is not worth the expense for a 10 min photoshoot!! If you watch Tiffen's Stedicam training DVD you will see Jerry running around with close to 40lbs worth of rig ... My total all up weight on the vest is around 15lbs!!!

I am suitably impressed enough with the HMC80 to order a second one this week...but that's me!! A smaller unit might suit you better or even a DSLR. They all do a good job...it's just a matter of what suits you!!

Chris

February 14th, 2011, 11:49 AM	#19
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	It's an interesting acronym, no doubt. I certainly don't want to give the impression that I carry any bias against the EVIL concept -- frankly, I think it's a much better way to go than D-SLR in terms of HD video recording. After all, the three things that make an SLR what it is (the mirror, the optical viewfinder and the penta-prism) are completely useless on a D-SLR when it's in Live View mode recording HD video. My prediction is that we're about to see a major industry shift in the HD acquisition market, away from D-SLR toward EVIL (where it belongs, in my opinion). The Panasonic GH1 and GH2 are simply the first generations of the next big trend in low-cost, affordable HD acquisition. Frankly I can't wait. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 14th, 2011, 02:17 PM	#25
Claire Buckley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 176	Sorry Brian, have to disagree. Remember World in Action? I do... By the time it takes to change that mag (assuming you werent on your last mag that is) the 10 seconds on which the story resides could lay in between the ether somewhere. So, to have 60 minute's worth of recordable media you had to have 6 fully loaded Arri mags in tow. But your able camera assistant could be relied upon to dodge any bullets in the latest war zone to make sure your footage was of the most contemporaneous in nature. Boy, was Ray Fitzwalter glad when more portable video came along. Then of course with 16mm you had to wait to get your rushes back from the chemists - Humphries Labs - that's assuming there wasn't a hair in the gate or the bath batch wasn't renewed. It was never as simple as that... believe me... :) __________________ Women don't hit harder, they just hit lower!

February 14th, 2011, 10:04 AM	#16
Amanda Duncan Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Mt. Vernon, Illinois Posts: 27	Chris Harding....tell me about your HMC80? I've eyeballed that camera for a while now. I'm going to get eaten alive for this, but I want to do some steady cam work and not sure how shoulder mount will work with weight limits and is just as easily balanced? Everyone else...I'm thinking about trying a little of both just to see what I like. If I go the safe way and have some video cams, it's a sure thing, for the most part that I will get the footage I need. With the DSLR, I can kind of play around and just get used to it and use what what looks good. After a while I will know what I wanna do, so I'm thinking about trying both. Worse case scenerio I end up with cool equipment that is there when I need it. But, if I go both ways....what about mixing footage? Is there a video cam/dslr combination that is a close match? A canon vid and a canon dslr or panasonic and panasonic? Is it that simple or is it just different all the way around the board? Thanx guys...me

February 14th, 2011, 10:26 AM	#17
Greg Fiske Major Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Santa Ana, CA Posts: 499	Also, if 12 minute limit is a problem, install magic lantern on a canon to auto resume recording.

February 14th, 2011, 01:25 PM	#21
Michael Simons Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Red Bank, NJ Posts: 553	Why would I have missed this? I would have been recording once they were set in position. I'm talking about the few seconds where the priest is "jockeying" them into their standing position before they recite their vows. Usually, after the priest gives the homily, he takes a few seconds to walk from the lecturn to the center of the aisle. He then positions the bride and groom to the area where they will face each other. You record all this and put it on their master edit? I simply hit the stop/start button at this point..Bam!..a new 12 minutes!

February 14th, 2011, 01:40 PM	#22
Michael Simons Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Red Bank, NJ Posts: 553	Amanda, every experienced DSLR user on here has used conventional video camera's. I used them for 17 years and now I shoot DSLR for over a year. So I have experience on both sides of the fence. The problem on this forum is that videographers that have never used DSLRs are knocking them. I think taking advice from someone that has never used something can be quite foolish. You can record an hour long Catholic Mass on a 12 minute DSLR. I know, I do it every weekend by myself with no other cameramen. If I was missing anything important, I'd be out of a job.

February 14th, 2011, 01:49 PM	#23
Philip Howells Trustee Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,212	Michael, there are many things in life I've not tried but which I'm prepared to bet a pound to a penny wouldn't suit me.

February 14th, 2011, 02:36 PM	#28
Philip Howells Trustee Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,212	Brian, as someone who had to change Arri mags whilst sitting on the side of a helicopter at a Navy ship or sub launch, hoping that it wouldn't happen during the change, I know you're right - but if I'd had to shoot weddings on an Arri well I wouldn't be shooting weddings. Michael, I was including non-video things also.

February 14th, 2011, 05:44 PM	#30
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Guys Wow!! Lively discussion here and I'm impressed that everyone is also being civil about it too (Maybe cos Chris Hurd has joined in???) There will always be differences of opinion and the DSLR (and EVIL) camps will usually be "at war" with the video camp (but in a friendly way, of course. I think it's much like our passionate "Ford vs Holden (GM)" people in Australia!!! To switch vehicle camps here is unheard of and once you are a fan you stay on that side of the fence for life. Surely it's also personal choice????? Amanda??? I don't want to influence you either but remember I was weaned on shoulder-mount cams and find that I just cannot adjust to tiny beasts when it comes to stability (probably that's why I haven't gravitated to DSLR's!!!) I have just received a HMC80 and I'm pretty happy with it....it has some new extra features which will make life simple for me too. However bear in mind that with the Rode mic and receiver pack added you are carrying over 8lbs of camera!!! Yes, I use it on my stedicam without any issues at all and it works fine (a smaller camera would probably be easier to fly but is not worth the expense for a 10 min photoshoot!! If you watch Tiffen's Stedicam training DVD you will see Jerry running around with close to 40lbs worth of rig ... My total all up weight on the vest is around 15lbs!!! I am suitably impressed enough with the HMC80 to order a second one this week...but that's me!! A smaller unit might suit you better or even a DSLR. They all do a good job...it's just a matter of what suits you!! Chris