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Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old May 2nd, 2012, 02:52 AM   #61
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

I know of exactly one Belgian wedding videographer that used to asked 5000 euro for a video, he didn't advertise his prizes nor mention them over phone or email, I knew what he asked because some of the brides that went to him and got a quote at his place ended up with me instead. :)
Now he does advertise his prizes and they are 50% lower and he doesn't use dslr... He does photography as well and I will bet that's his main income.

video's like a "save the date" which have been popular in other countries for years are very difficult to sell here, because I wanted to see if there was a market for it I gave one away for free last year, you know how many applied? 2 couples.... and it was on my site for 3 months. This year I already have received quite some bookings for weddings, how many are save the date? None, and the save the date video I got now as demo on my site was done with dslr's only.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 05:31 AM   #62
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

i think it's similar here in Ireland, most Brides couldn't care less what you record with as long as you can come up with the goods!
Due to our small population and our economic circumstances, I don't think theres too many operators here asking above 2000/3000 and getting it, most would be in the 1000 and lower bracket if at all.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 08:04 AM   #63
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

Using DSLRs is all part of trying to improve the quality of the videos we deliver to clients. Video is stuck in a low rent ghetto where the photographer gets paid more than the videographer even though more time & effort goes into producing a quality video. The video isn't valued in the same way that the photo album is & to change that perception we need to deliver a product that is significantly different to the traditional documentary style wedding video. Here in the UK a wedding video has only ever been chosen by a small minority of couples even if they are quite prepared to pay for a photographer so the market is open for the vast majority of weddings that don't have a videographer. However this market is not going to be cracked by offering the traditional style as that has been rejected but by offering something different that will be valued in the same way that the beautiful photo album is valued

The message is slowly spreading that there is another option than a cheap wedding video. We did a wedding show at the weekend & had one bride specifically ask if we did a cinematic highlights trailer with audio from the day woven in with music etc Brides are getting savvy about DSLRs & book us because we use them rather than the shoulder mount cameras some of our local rivals use.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 09:28 AM   #64
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

Isn't it a bit late in 2012 to still not see where our industry is heading? Where was everyone when the leaders in our community revolutionized the wedding film industry many years ago?

Do names like Konrad Czystowski, Ray Roman, Michael Y Wong, Joe Simon, Stillmotion, etc. ring any bell?

If your market still doesn't see the value in your work and is still paying the photographer more than you, maybe it's a good sign you need to do something about it before it's too late to catch up with the industry standard.

For those who say that this "reality" doesn't apply to their part of the world, I can only see that as a golden opportunity to become THE LEADER of your market. What are you waiting for?
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 01:35 PM   #65
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

You don't change a video culture just like that, there has been change over the past 20 years here but most change is limited by the fact that people just are not willing to invest into video that heavily. I was at a city hal for the legal part of the wedding last year and we had to wait a bit, a guy working there came up to me and said "oh, video? we hardly see that here" of about 300 weddings they had per year every wedding had a photog and maybe 10% had a videographer.

Funny that you mention Joe Simon, last year I had a bride showing me a wedding video from him on the internet filmed on a boat in the ocean and she said she really liked that style and wanted her video to look like that, I said that if she would pay me 5000 euro + I'd produce her such a video but she had a budget of max 1000 euro, need to say more?
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 03:51 PM   #66
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

Nobody starts out in the industry charging 10K+ for a wedding right away. We all need to start somewhere in order to climb up. It depends if you want to stay forever in the low end market and produce affordable wedding videos or if you wish to move up and become a successful wedding filmmaker in your area.

Fortunately for us, there are pioneers in the industry who have already lead the way and shown us what it takes to get there. The question is, are you currently doing something that allows you to make it happen?

Does your portfolio show work that looks like it's worth more than what you currently ask for? Does your work seem to be able to attract clients who are actually willing to pay $5-10K for your services?

You can't open a fast food restaurant and expect people to come to you for fine dining.
You can't be surprised if a customer turns you down when you try to sell them a fine dining experience at your fast food restaurant.
And you can certainly not say that nobody in your area would ever pay for fine dining if there is simply no fine dining restaurant in your area.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 04:16 PM   #67
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

Quote:
there are pioneers in the industry who have already lead the way and shown us what it takes to get there
They certainly won't get anywhere in my country with their prizes, believe me.

I think you don't understand but that's normal because you don't live here and don't know what our culture is towards video because if you did, you'd know it would be just wishfull thinking to get paid for a wedding video according to delivered quality.

There is a quite big Belgian wedding forum and you know what THE most asked question is in the videosection? 'I"m looking for a cheap videographer' and by cheap they mean 400-500 euro.

I'm not thinking negative but it's just reality, if you want to do weddings full time here and make a decent living out of it, by all means buy a dslr but use it for making photo's...
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 04:48 PM   #68
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

I just got my Dslr the other day (canon 60d) I have to say I am impressed. I have had a XHA1 and still currently have a Sony Ax2000. I see a TON of possibilities I can use it for. I have a wedding coming up in a couple weeks I will defiantly be using it as one of my main cameras.

Not sure if anyone said this or thought of this. I find at times when I'm using my Ax2000 people get intimidated and start to act un-natural. i haven't tested the theory yet since i just got it but i think with the DSLR people wont be quite as intimidated.

As far as clients giving you a problem with using a dslr just list all the TV shows that use DSLRs to shoot. If its good enough for Tv I think its good enough for a wedding... just a thought
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 04:53 PM   #69
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

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i haven't tested the theory yet since i just got it but i think with the DSLR people wont be quite as intimidated.
A dslr introduces a totally different behaviour, you don't want to know how many people take a "pose" when I am filming them thinking I'm taking a picture, funny sometimes but often annoying as you have to stop filming and give them a thumbs up as a signal they can start moving again because they won't move as long as you keep looking through that viewfinder. :D

My favorite lens during the reception to film people is a 85mm f1.4 Samyang lens, with the 1.6 cropfactor I can keep enough distance without being noticed that much and only that gives "natural" behaviour.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 06:21 PM   #70
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
They certainly won't get anywhere in my country with their prizes, believe me.

I think you don't understand but that's normal because you don't live here and don't know what our culture is towards video because if you did, you'd know it would be just wishfull thinking to get paid for a wedding video according to delivered quality.

There is a quite big Belgian wedding forum and you know what THE most asked question is in the videosection? 'I"m looking for a cheap videographer' and by cheap they mean 400-500 euro.

I'm not thinking negative but it's just reality, if you want to do weddings full time here and make a decent living out of it, by all means buy a dslr but use it for making photo's...
Noa, you are right, I don't live in the same area so I might not know what it's like over there.

Like you said, we can't easily change a culture in a day or two. Just here in Canada, I would say that not even 5-10 years ago, nobody would've ever thought that wedding videos could be worth more than $500-1000. People would've probably called it wishful thinking to charge $10-15K. But success often belongs to those who dare and there were leaders in our industry who have made it possible. Today, we're all benefiting from it.

Based on what you're saying, it seems like things in Belgium are still like they were in Canada about a decade ago, so you may think it's impossible for things to change. But if you never try, you may never know...
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 07:28 PM   #71
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

Hey Long

One quick question?? What now makes your videos worth 10 times the price you used to charge...surely it's not because you just happen to have a different camera...the bride doesn't really care whether your camera is a DSLR or a WXYZ ...she simply wants to see your work and decide if she likes your style.

So I can go out and buy a couple of 5D III's and some prime lenses and my hourly rate can then change from $100 an hour to $1000 an hour. I'm not saying it doesn't happen..I just want to know what physically makes your product suddenly worth 10 x more ... you might be spending a lot more time during editing, if so then I can see why you can charge more ... if editing a creative, state of the art, wedding shoot only with DSLR's takes 6 weeks to edit then you are, of course, fully entitled to LOT'S more money per job.

So, what makes a DSLR wedding worth $10K ?????

Chris
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 08:22 PM   #72
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

Hi Chris,

By no means I am saying that using dSLR's will automatically allow me to charge 10 times more. Like it's been said before, they are simply tools for us to use. But looking at what leaders in our industry have accomplished, it seems to make sense to me that it's a good thing to learn the style and workflow that allowed them to get where they are today.

Over here in Canada, most wedding video companies have moved from the traditional wedding videography to the movie-like wedding films that put a lot of emphasis on storytelling and overwall cinematography. I do spend a lot of hours meeting my clients, planning, shooting and editing to produce a wedding film that I hope will entertain my clients and give them a great cinematography experience (or at least, that's my goal). Over the years, the market has also been more and more exposed to this style and has started to give it much more importance and value. It just only happened that dSLR's were decent tools that give us the possibility to get closer to the desired result.

I am definitely not a hardcore dSLR fan that would never use anything else. But until I know I can get the same or better result using another tool or another workflow, that's just how I know to make wedding films at the moment.

I think it's important to always stay open to new ideas and concepts and keep our eyes open to what others in our industry are doing so we can get inspired and learn from them to improve our own work. Until I become good enough to come up with my own ideas and find new tools for the craft, all I can do is feel blessed that there were people before me who have done great things that I can learn from, namely Konrad Czystowski from Freshsox.com who has been a great mentor to me and taught me everything that I know today.

Oh and my work is not in the $10K range yet. I was simply referring to some higher profile companies in my area who charge around that price. As we speak today, I'm still sitting between $3-8K for a wedding. But I do hope I will improve and become good enough to make something that's worth more.

I hope this answers your question.

Cheers,

Long
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 09:20 PM   #73
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
A dslr introduces a totally different behaviour, you don't want to know how many people take a "pose" when I am filming them thinking I'm taking a picture, funny sometimes but often annoying as you have to stop filming and give them a thumbs up as a signal they can start moving again because they won't move as long as you keep looking through that viewfinder.:D.
Interesting, I could see in some situations where you would want people to act like that but I can see where that would be annoying. but then again I don't want people running away from the camera.

I agree with many its just another tool. give it another year two and I think were going to see more functionality out of dslrs
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 10:34 PM   #74
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

Thanks Long

So is the higher price (as compared to a traditional wedding) due to the fact that the editing takes 10 times longer??? Or are DSLR/Cinematic/Film-Like producers simply charging a lot more per hour because it's creative. Surely the fact that you are holding a different camera in your hands doesn't concern the bride but I can fully understand if a wedding gig like that took up a lot more of your time or needed a crew of 3 or 4 people..compared to a traditional video solo shoot. I don't think I would want to have to involve extra shooters..more to worry about and will they turn up, will they mess up the footage???

Actually Tom one of my fellow videographers is a photographer as well and she shoots her video on a Canon 5D II...she says what really annoys her is people who come up and pose and ask for their photo to be taken!! The answer there is very easy..stick the 5D on rails and a whopping great matte box in the front and a 7" monitor on top and people will start realising it IS shooting video.

Maybe next season I should get myself a couple of GH2's and some lenses and start raising prices????

Chris
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 10:37 PM   #75
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Re: DSLR vs. Video Camera

i can see the advantages with dslrs but they may not be suitable for everyone. i think if your a one person operation then I could see the dslr being perhaps that more difficult to set up etc.

I remember seeing thisvideo below and thinking that it was really good and I'd love to be able to produce something like this, but then i discovered that there were five camera operators and i imagine a good amount of editing.

joya and emre | wedding music video (not sure if i'm allowed to link to outside stuff - please remove if not)

its a major production, but from what i see around my neck of the woods, i couldn't see many operators being able to run something like this for a wedding.

The aspirations are worthy of merit to produce quality products but it has to be balanced by what is achievable, especially in the single operator zone!!
I'd use my 7D when I can otherwise it'll be the camcorders!

this is my 7D setup but i cant break it apart in any good time to take photographs - it takes ages to put it together too :(
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/members/...e720-rig-2.jpg
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