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Old November 26th, 2012, 07:20 AM   #46
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

It's in a church. That's where my concern is with any camera. I use lights at the receptions so its never really a problem there but the ceremony.......those can get pretty dark.

The FX1000 does decent at 9db of gain which is as high as I go and that has to be cleaned up with NV. Even at 9db it still gets kinda muddy looking, especially when zoomed in.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 07:59 AM   #47
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Hi Tim

With the HMC82 I can push it to 18db in a Church but I prefer not going over 15db and I seldom need to.

The 90, according to Barry Green has a really clean image right up to 24db!! So I reckon it could handle any Church....Our churches don't allow lighting and so far I have yet to find one that has defeated me!!!

If iAuto on the 90 asks for as much as 18db just use it..the result will be way better than the FX even though it's higher gain it will be a noise free image!!

Chris
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Old November 26th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #48
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Thanks Chris,

As far as picture profiles, do you think the 90 and 82 would be similar? Do you have any suggestions as to what kind of picture profile would be best to use? I've always been a Sony guy so I have no idea what makes the panny look it best.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #49
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Out of the box I like the look, weight and feel. One thing I see I'm not going to like is you have to remove the battery to plug in the AC power cord......this is not good for me!!
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Old November 26th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #50
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

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Originally Posted by Chris Harding View Post
Hi Tim

With the HMC82 I can push it to 18db in a Church but I prefer not going over 15db and I seldom need to.

The 90, according to Barry Green has a really clean image right up to 24db!! So I reckon it could handle any Church....Our churches don't allow lighting and so far I have yet to find one that has defeated me!!!

If iAuto on the 90 asks for as much as 18db just use it..the result will be way better than the FX even though it's higher gain it will be a noise free image!!

Chris
Chris, did you say the AC90 was an ISO40 camera? Doesn't that mean that at +24db its really only at effectively ISO640? Getting back to the original topic of the Sony cam, it appears to be clean and still sharp through at least 2500ISO. I'm not sure what I'm missing but what makes you still lean toward the AC90?
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Old November 26th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #51
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

I am pretty sure I am going to order this camera within the next 30 days. I have one big question I am still trying to research. I own five Canon “L Series” EF mount lenses. A manual adaptor will be useless as these lenses do not have manual aperture rings. It looks like Metabones has an electronic adaptor that might work:

Sony NEX System : Canon EF Lens to Sony NEX Smart Adapter II

Does anyone have any feedback or experience adapting lenses to Sony NEX cameras?

Steve
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:04 PM   #52
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Hi Tim

I have no idea on what Panny call scene files which are in fact the picture profiles ...the HMC82 is amazing as the image profile is just awesome out of the box!! I just shoot with them at default which is everything set to zero. Now I am told that the 90 in iAuto mode not only sets focus/iris/shutter but also sets the scene file according to the conditions so it would actually change from say indoor to outdoor. That's worth looking at (I wonder if they are saved???) On the big brother AC-130 I found the Chroma level needed to go up a bit... I do have a scene file manual for the HMC150 but it covers all cameras and that explains in detail what each parameter does to your overall picture.

James??? The "guru" of the Panasonics Barry Green (he writes the books on them) said that the HMC40/80 is an "effective ISO 40 camera" and the AC-90 has the same sensitivity but a faster lens and cleaner gain..that figure might apply totally differently to video cameras with huge still camera sensors in them. Compared to a stills camera the EA50 at 2500ISO is actually quite low compared to normal 16MP still chips that can go way, way higher!!

Maybe someone with more savvy can help out here?? I think when the two format's collide it get tricky ...gain vs iso ?? My biggest issue with a still camera chip is the aliasing and moire problems ..I LOVE the camera form factor and interchangeable lenses!!!

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Old November 26th, 2012, 11:11 PM   #53
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Well I've had a chance to play around with it some Chris and at first I was blown away by the clean picture I was getting at 30db. I mounted the 90 and FX on tripods and shot some video of our game room that has dimmable lights. I have the FX set to go no more than 9db, that's the limit for it. The FX was a little brighter than the 90 at 30db but with much more noise.

The first test looked good with the stactic shots. Then I started panning and zooming. There is definitely some major noise reduction going on. If you have ever used NeatVideo or some noise reduction software like it and over did it a bit, that's what it looked like on the PC external monitor in Vegas.....had me worried. So I burned a SD dvd like I would for a wedding dvd and I really had to look hard to see what I was seeing in Vegas. Don't think the average Joe would ever see it.

I haven't found a way to set a limit for the auto iris/gain. I would like to be able to set it to not go over 24db.

I hope this cam works out, I like it alot. Perfect size and weight and auto mode seems to work very well. Not sure if I will know anything until I do a wedding with it though.

If I can keep the running time below 120 min. I can send it back in 30 days.
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Old November 27th, 2012, 01:37 AM   #54
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Hi Tim

I have been told the 90 NR is amazing!! At 30db my HMC's would look like the video is shot with a nylon stocking over the hood.

On the HMC's I can limit gain to either 12db or 24db ..it's under cam gain limit in the display menu..maybe because the NR is so good you don't need to limit gain...what I do is go manual and then still keep AF but switch the camera to manual iris (after it has given me a rough exposure in auto) and then turn down gain to between 12 and 15db and use a video light to brighten the subjects.

My "theory" is that at weddings where you have tons of darkness the camera will try to overexpose as all it sees is black so going manual under the blacks are clean and then lighting faces makes for richer video! You cannot expect the camera in auto to expose a dark room correctly as it will try to brighten everything and you really only want the subject brightened.

Try someone sitting in a reasonably dark room and shoot them in auto and then use an on-camera light with the iris up to say 12db and then light until you get zebras and see the difference!!

Our PAL models are not here yet!! Maybe post Christmas???

Chris
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Old November 27th, 2012, 02:15 AM   #55
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

I also have the HMC150 and if I'm not mistaken and my math is correct given that it's a 500 ISO cam (according to Barry in the link below), the AC90 (which you said is effectively a 40 ISO cam) at +30db is equivalent sensitivity-wise to the HMC at +9db. Please correct me if I'm wrong there, but that's how I understand it. Now there are many other things that are enticing about the AC90 over the HMC but its interesting how Panasonic is managing their sensitivity and gain in their newest cameras by starting at a lower ISO and allowing for much higher gain levels. Still, if it does have less noise at 30db than the HMC at 9db that would certainly be nice.

This is the thread that I'm pulling from:

HPX250: HPX250 sensitivity comparable to HMC150
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Old November 27th, 2012, 06:40 AM   #56
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Hi James

I am now even more confused than ever now ... aparently Panasonic like to lower the ISO rating to get a cleaner image... I was under the impression that ISO was what we call gain in still cameras but I notice that the Sony EA50 has both gain settings in video mode AND ISO settings in video mode but just ISO settings in Still Mode. The AC-90 has smaller chips than the HMC 40 but both have the same ISO..the 90 makes up for the smaller chips by having an F1.5 lens as opposed to a F1.9 lens.

I really cannot answer your question at all but I'm interested in how you did the math!

Chris
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Old November 27th, 2012, 06:57 AM   #57
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

ISO is today what we old timers and former users of film used to call ASA or film speed. Why the switch? Who knows but to me a camera or "film speed" of 40 soulds like the old Kodachrome transparency film for the 70s. For you young un's out there simon and Garfield had a song titled Kodachrome, just in case you've never seen the real stuff. Anyway 40 would be clean as a newly bathed baby's bottom but not so good under "trying lighting conditions" unless there was a way to increase the effective speed of the "film", so Gain is the thing. For you young un's there is still a laundry detergent named Gain. Do not confuse the 2. Gain is an electronic method of increasing the effective speed of the "film" but as we know comes at a price. Grainy pictures. Some cameras handle it better than others. In the old days (1970s) shooting stills for newspapers, I shot TriX B&W film and never shot at less than 800 even on the bright days UNLESS it was required of me to shoot at 400 (TriX's rated film speed or ASA) for nighttime shots it wasn't unusual to push the film to ASA 1600 and on occassion to 2400. Yes the grain looked like ink blobs when printed in the paper BUT we got the image and that was all that counted.
So young people, go find a copy of or buy an MP3 of or ask Mom and Dad to listen to Simon and Garfield doing Kodachrome and then go to the market and get a bottle of Gain for the laundry and NOW we all know What ISO is AND how to interpolate ISO when GAIN is applied!

If ANY of you know that some of the above is true and most isn't then take it ALL with a grain of salt and if you DO believe it all, then my work here is finished. ;-)

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Old November 27th, 2012, 01:15 PM   #58
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Harding View Post
Hi James

I am now even more confused than ever now ... aparently Panasonic like to lower the ISO rating to get a cleaner image... I was under the impression that ISO was what we call gain in still cameras but I notice that the Sony EA50 has both gain settings in video mode AND ISO settings in video mode but just ISO settings in Still Mode. The AC-90 has smaller chips than the HMC 40 but both have the same ISO..the 90 makes up for the smaller chips by having an F1.5 lens as opposed to a F1.9 lens.

I really cannot answer your question at all but I'm interested in how you did the math!

Chris
Yeah, all this never really made sense to me until I started looking at the larger sensor cams like the EA50 and trying to understand why they would be "better" in low light. From what I understand, each camera is "rated" at a certain ISO (formerly known as ASA as Don pointed out in his wild post above that involved music and laundry detergent...haha). This rating is essentially what ISO the camera has at 0db. Video cameras measure gain in decibles while still cameras use the term ISO...but they both essentially mean the same thing. The new Sony cam gives its users an OPTION of seeing the gain readout in either db's or as an ISO reading. I'm guessing they did that to make it easier for DSLR users who always work in ISO and also for video camcorder users who mostly work in db's. A nice touch.

When ISO is doubled that equals one stop of sensitivity. The equivalent in db's is every +6db equals one stop of sensitivity. As you can see, different cameras have different starting points for their sensitivity. You mentioned the AC90 was rated at 40 ISO? Well that means that at 0db, it's equal to 40 ISO. Now, every time you double that ISO that's the same as adding +6db of gain. So the AC90 with +6db of gain means it's at 80 ISO. With +12db of gain means it's at 160 ISO. +18db = 320 ISO and so on...

Conversely, I think that the EA50 is rated at 160 ISO. I may be wrong. But I'm pretty sure that at 0 db, the EA50 shows 160 ISO. Add +6db of gain and that equals about 320 ISO. With +12db of gain (which means 2 stops of sensitivity) the camera is now at "around" 640 ISO and so on...Oh, and if you don't want to go up that fast you can go by 1/2 stops which is the same as adding +3db of gain. According to a spec sheet, and again I may be off here as I don't have the camera in front of me, the EA50 apparently goes from 0db to 30db in video mode and you can go up in increments of +3db's. In still mode, it doesn't display as db, but ISO instead and you can go to a much higher ISO in still's mode.

The HMC is a 500 ISO camera according to that link above. So you'd essentially need about +9db on the EA50 to match the sensitivity of the HMC at it's starting point (0db). Now, the catch is that larger sensor cameras seem to have cleaner and less noisy pictures at higher ISO/db levels. So bringing the EA50 up to 2500 ISO isn't that big of a deal and still has a pretty noise free picture according to a few reviews I've read. It looks still really good at 5000 ISO whereas for a smaller sensor camera 5000 ISO would be pretty noisy. It also is nice that the EA50 appears to also keep the image sharp at these high ISO's. I know on my HMC, when I start getting into the high ISO's (or high decibles of gain added) the pic starts to get a bit muddy. And for a camera like the HMC150 that isn't super sharp to begin with that can be a problem. The AC90 sounds like a much sharper camera so you have a bit more to lose and from what I've read, it doesn't sound like you lose much at all as you go higher in gain which is nice. Just remember, it started at a lower ISO so it's highest gain setting of +30db isn't all that crazy sensitive.

One final comparative note...reviews posted in another thread have mentioned that the FS100 is 1.5 stops more sensitive than the EA50. Basically, the FS100's starting ISO is 500 so it makes sense that it would take +9db (1.5 stops) of gain to just get to where the FS100 starts at 0db. Plus, it handles noise really well as you go up. Then again, so does the EA50.

Again, I'm new to this stuff. I could be wrong but that's how I understand it. Where I get confused is when you start tossing in the fact that larger sensor cameras can have different lenses that are slower than camcorders like the HMC and AC90, then you start to get my math all mixed up. It's nice though that you "can" throw on a faster lens onto a camera like the EA50 but everything comes at a price. That is the big convenience of smaller sensor cams. The other thing that confuses me a bit regarding sensitivity is when people say certain cameras are F11 or F10 sensitivity or whatever (at 2000 lux) and how that translates and if interchangeable cameras can even be categorized like that since different lenses make a camera more or less sensitive. It's probably simple to understand but right now my brain is full having just learned the math explained above from various posts and threads so there's no room to learn anything else for the time being.

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Old November 27th, 2012, 01:26 PM   #59
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Chris, here's a screen crab of the FX1000 and AC90. Their both zoomed in, the FX is 3.1/ 9db....T
the 90 is 2.5/30db.

Oh yeah, the 90 is on the left

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/members/...773-90vsfx.jpg
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Old November 27th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #60
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Re: Will the new Sony work as a run 'n wedding camera?

Firstly Tim

Amazing !! at 9db you can already see grain on the orange bit of the seat from the FX but at 30db the image is still clean. The NR on the AC-90 is certainly very good. On my HMC82's I could probably scrape the the FX image quality/noise value at 12db but certainly not any higher. At 30db the noise would overtake the picture and I'm sure on the FX it would be much the same. I'm quite staggered how they do it!!

James??? Thanks for that you have given me an education regarding ISO and gain ratings...From my old camera days ASA was the USA speed rating and DIN was the German one. Yeah of course with something like the EA50 click on a 50mm F1.7 lens instead of the stock 18-200 F3.5 and your camera's ISO rating has now changed...Apart from form factor I liked the idea with the Sony of being able to go into the reception and zap on a really fast lens and be able to see in the dark!!

Don?? Thanks! Now I really feel my age again when you start talking about fim and ASA ..I used to shoot most weddings on 100ASA (when I changed from 6x7 format to 35mm) and used to get around 40 -45 exposures from a standard cassette using bulk film stock.
What are your video camera thoughts now Don ..looking at the EA50 or AC-90 ???

Chris
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