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Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old January 22nd, 2013, 07:42 AM   #16
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

I disagree Noa. It might be the differences on how 24p looks will vary from camera to camera. I know my particular cameras produce images that do look film-like. Keep in mind I did not start out using 24p to achieve a film look, so "film like" was not my goal.

But I can say with certainty I shot probably 50 wedding or so in various frame rates in HD, and I noticed an immediate and distinct difference when I shot in 24p.

I had customers over last night and they just loved my videos, and they do look gorgeous, they have an indefinable and subtle difference from 1080i or 720 60p.

I guess to sum up the difference, my 24p video video looks more like photographic images than it ever did before. I only watch my videos on Bluray, and that may be why I see so much difference. I refuse to watch my own work on DVD an more, DVDs look like hell any more to me.

24p, when shot by someone like me, will NEVER look like a Hollywood movie. But frame rates DO affect the look of my videos, and I do like the look of it.

Keep in mind also I shoot most everything from a tripod, and I do very little panning other than necessary to follow a subject, and this allows the viewer to appreciate the subtle differences in looks.

If I was going around handheld and if my footage was shaky, it would look rough in 24p, but with my shooting style, it works out great.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 08:03 AM   #17
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

Now I do have experience in shooting in 25p as this was my main format with my xh-a1 and that's what I use on my dslr's all the time but sometimes I"d shoot in 50i as well on the xh-a1 and I had a hard time telling the difference, you did notice ofcourse that the movement was more smooth but when there was not much movement going on, I couldn't see if it was shot in 25p or 50i.

The same applies for my sony cx730's, they do have that a distinct videolook, no matter if I choose 25p or 50p where again I see that 50p is more fluid in motions but beside that I can't tell the difference.

My dslr's however do have more of a filmlook at 25p so if framerate made the difference I would notice that on the cx730 as well in 25p but I don't.

If I have to explain why the dslr looks more like "film" I would say the color it produces which is something I cannot reproduce with a small sensor camera, it's difficult to explain and to pinpoint exactly what is causing this change but for me it's not the framerate.

You could f.i. take one frame out of a cinema movie shot in 24 or 25p and immediately have that feeling it was shot on a cinemacamera, take the exact same frame out of a consumercamera shot in 24p or 25p and you will know it was shot on a videocamera, since that is just one frame you are looking at, framerate should not matter either. There is much more going on that makes a client say "this is a filmlook".
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 08:09 AM   #18
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

My Canon XA10 produces almost identical images to my GH2 in 24p, they are a near perfect match (particularly in good lighting) and they both have the film look you refer to with your DSLR.

I do think the camera choice makes a huge difference in the look.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 08:32 AM   #19
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

Ok, here is a test, below video is one of my personal projects, you might have read about it in the thread I opened in this forum but assuming you didn't follow it: was this video shot in 24p, 25p, 50i or 50p and does it have a film or video look? I know there is hardly any motion going on which should make it much harder to guess.

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Old January 22nd, 2013, 09:05 AM   #20
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

Noa, you are a very talented videographer, I have seen your work. You also know a lot about video. However, regarding this disagreement we are having, I only know what I see with my own videos. I know my cameras, and I know what my videos looked like before shooting 24p. And they are different.

Are you saying your video was shot at many different frame rates and the shots from scene to scene are different? If that is the case, Vimeo recompressed your video to one uniform frame rate, so we are not viewing your video at the same frame rate it was shot anyway.

You do not have to prove to me it all looks the same, or different. I know 720 60p has a different look from 24p for example, because I can see it on my TV.

My online videos look nothing like they do on Bluray. However, some online videos do let the 24p quality show through very nicely. Here is an example of a children's thing shot in 24p. Is there any doubt this was shot in 24p? I don't think there is. Whether someone likes the way it looks is not important, but from what I see here there is a definite soft, nostalgic feeling in the image. Don't you agree? Please forgive the overexposure. It's not a great looking video, was learning to use my camera at the time of this shooting, over a year ago.

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Old January 22nd, 2013, 10:31 AM   #21
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

from I see in Jeffs video is yes it looks great and filmy but you can see a blur when the kids mover their arms which in that kind of video is fine. Its a little different when you have a full dance floor of party people. I think later this year I will find a wedding I can experiment on.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:31 AM   #22
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

But does the video I posted have a film like look or a video look to you or anyone else that has seen it? Just to know how it is perceived no matter what framerate is used. I find this a very interesting discussion, not to prove I"m right or wrong but just to know how people perceive a video or film look and why that is the case.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:41 AM   #23
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

Keep in mind these videos are compressed. The blurriness you see is as much from compression as much as the limitations of 24p, it's exaggerated after compression, but it is still 24p, at least that's what Vimeo tells me.

It's not a "great" looking video, of course. It's over exposed, and it's shot from quite a distance but the fact that it looks filmic is the only point I'm making. It was also color corrected poorly but it is what it is.

Even so, not everyone would like it. On the other hand, party footage looks very nice. I edit wedding videos all day every day shot in 24p and they look great to me.

My point is not that these videos look "better", simply that they look different. Because of my camera's limitations, I must either shoot in 60i or 24p, and I prefer 24p after trying it out.

720 60p and 1080i also look very nice, much sharper, but what the heck, it's HD and looks amazing no matter which frame rate I choose.

People watch online videos and tend to make snap judgements on cameras to buy and all manner of things based on web samples, but the fact is that the web is not nearly ideal for comparison sometimes.

If your final product is on Bluray, as mine is, then you need to shoot a wedding in 24p and try it before judging. That is, in my opinion, the single best way to determine what works for you.

Last edited by Jeff Harper; January 22nd, 2013 at 01:01 PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:47 AM   #24
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

Noa: I have a Canon XHA1 and a Canon DSLR (t4i). In my opinion there is a huge difference between 60i and 24p on the XHA1. 60i gives that crisp "video" look as oposed to the softer 24p and 30p image. The difference isnt as noticeable when viewing on line but when watching from a DVD player its very noticable. As far as the blur with 24p that everyone speaks of, I havent seen it. Sure the motion may be slightly different but i would hardly refer to it as "blur".
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:51 AM   #25
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

So does the softer image in 25p give you the impression it's more film like?
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:57 AM   #26
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

Noa, your video is not, in my opinion, a good sample to "guess" from, it does appear to be a small chip camera, some shots appear to be shot with a 1/4" camera, but I could be wrong. The opening shots especially appear to have been shot using a smaller chip camera, it looks like a Panny, but I'm shooting in the dark, I have no idea.

Static shots outdoors of the subject matter you chose can look filmic despite being shot in 60i or whatever.

Without motion it is nearly impossible to determine what frame rate it's shot with. There is a softness to most shots that give the video a nice filmic look, but in the right light this can be achieved regardless of the frame rate.

The film look is about a feeling one gets from watching a movie. When you shoot things in the right light, they can have a dreamy, nice appearance and it doesn't matter what frame rate you choose.

I have shot 60i video that looked very filmic, and it had nothing to do with frame rate, but instead was the result of the lighting and subject matter.

It is a nice video, by the way.

Last edited by Jeff Harper; January 22nd, 2013 at 01:02 PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 12:02 PM   #27
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
So does the softer image in 25p give you the impression it's more film like?
Not really, however, it does look more like what im use to seeing on TV.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 01:39 PM   #28
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

Interesting, the video was shot with in 50p on a APS-C sensor camera (the nex ea50) with the slower stocklens, now we can discuss why you thought it was 1/4" inch camera :) but I guess it must have been the lack of shallow dof.

But to come back to the question of the TS, I"m guessing that the bride's reference to a filmlook must have come from shallow dof as that is something very obvious since the dslr rage started, shallow dof is something found back in almost every cimema film, not in every scene but used a lot and that is a recognizable part when people with no video experience make a reference to film. I think even by adding black bars to mimic the cinema aspect ratio instantly enhances that film like feeling.

I did have a client a few weeks back when I showed some demo's and there where some steadycam shots in there and he said; "that's just like a movie" only referring to the steadicam shots.

I think when a client asks you to make their video look like film and if you ask what they mean by that, that no-one can answer you.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 01:53 PM   #29
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

In regards to the whole "Film Look" debate, it seems that people are starting to destroy beautifully shot footage by manipulating it in a fashion that they feel is artistic and more film like. I started to notice this about two years ago. People started to color grade their footage in odd ways in an attempt to make it feel more cineamatic. Good composition, good sound, and good looking footage helps to give a production a more cineamatic feel.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 02:41 PM   #30
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Re: Weddings in 24 FPS

I agree Kevin. I've shown customers DVDs shot at 60i that appeared very film like without any intention of mine to go for a film look. I just wanted a classic well shot looking video and by shooting steady shots and using classic, conservative technique it looked film like.

Noa, it appeared to me to be a small sensor camera because of a lack of detail in the opening shots. This was likely a result of recompression of your 50p video.

So you want us to watch a video shot in 50p, converted to 25p, recompressed a total of twice, and to figure out what it was shot in? Impossible.

Think about it, if you uploaded a 50p video that has been converted properly, it's converted to 25p which is not a far cry from 24p anyway. Agreed? Vimeo only does 24p, 25p, and 30p.

It would make more sense to show something constructive like a video shot in 24p that shows the benefit or difference using 24p, rather than to try and prove to others that 24p looks the same as everything else, or that 50p looks the same. or whatever. When we watch your video we are no longer watching a 50p, video, but instead we are watching a 50p video converted to 25p.

I can tell you all day long I can see a difference in my own videos, and I watch them on Bluray routinely, but you still want me to look at a video shot in 50p and to guess what it was shot in to prove a point of some kind, but I just don't get it.

You are one of my favorite people in this forum, so I guess I'll just say I don't quite get this and give you the benefit of the doubt. I know you're trying to make a point, I just don't get it.
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