Upgrade neccesary for weddings? - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Special Interest Areas > Wedding / Event Videography Techniques

Wedding / Event Videography Techniques
Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 21st, 2013, 09:00 PM   #16
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Posts: 769
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Hey Kelsey.

I'd ask myself first, "what kind of weddings" do i want to continue doing?
If your clientelle prefers a documented day, then this Sony might be fine. Low light performance is a huge deal, so be careful.
Personally, this camcorder isn't what i'd buy..You should check out one of the sites' sponsors. They're local to us..Hamilton Video and Sound.
Yes, the camcorders cost a bit more, but they'll pay off in no time.
The manual controls are totally essential, and it will look much more professional.

If you're looking to get into cinematic, this is another ball of wax..
Peter Manojlovic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2013, 10:51 PM   #17
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Apple Valley CA
Posts: 4,866
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Manual control on these typically means you can control shutter OR aperature, not both. Auto functions are usually VERY good, and can adapt to changing image conditions faster than most operators. Also there are some pretty cool capabilities via touch screen.

Any of the long term Sony owners here could give you the basic rundown on how to set the camera for best results. These are SMALL cameras, controls are what they are, small, limited, and not for everyone (sausage fingered operators will get frustrated fast!). You generally won't have to access controls a lot (thanks to well tuned "intelligent auto"), but you have SOME control in a pinch.

1/8" mic input and a headphone jack are present right side rear, a bit awkward as they are "under" the handstrap, not a problem if you're on tripod or a rig. You get the BOSS "magic eyeball" which is pretty much as good as a steadycam if you're handheld, it's like the gimballed tracking modules on air to air missles, it stays on target! G glass rather than Zeiss, one place they cut a bit of cost.

Here's the one worry I'd have, this new "6xx" series has the general "upscale features" of the older 5xx and 7xx series, but the specs say it's a 4.7mm sensor vs. a 6.3mm on the PJ790 (likely the same as 2012 7xx series cams)... I'm not familiar with your old GL2, but you may or may not take a performance hit in comparison... IOW, you might find the 650 to be adequate to your expectations, or not - the GL2 was a midrange cam if memory serves, and so your "low light" expectations may not be too high to start with? Since this is a new model, I hesitate to comment on whether the performance will do the trick for you... low lux mode on the 7xx series cams usually gives the camera better low light than most people's eyes. A small LED light with a dimmer also works wonders, a little light goes a long way with these cameras.

Download the manual, if this years models aren't posted yet, last years will probably be similar enough - there are ways to optimize these little cameras and squeeze a lot out of them, better to know at least where to poke before you go hands on so you can get an accurate impression - half the time I swear the "review" sites criticize a cam because they are clueless on how to operate it, you'll have better luck asking here!

I've used Sonys for a while, so that's the way I'd lean, but you could also look at Panasonics or Canon - both offer similar cameras in this price range, and there are DVi threads that will give you the low down on them.

You might take a gander at the "shooting with small handycams" thread here, and you'll have to decide whether you "need" a big cam for your shooting style, or to "impress" clients. I have no doubt that you will find the image capture capability of ANY current HD cam to be a big leap over your GL's...



As far as "bundling", let's just say some bundles will make you more, others will lose you money big time! I would NOT package two cameras together, the odds of finding another event videographer that "needs" a pair of cameras, especially "vintage" ones is not so good, IMO... but you probably should put together packages with the accessories you no longer need, that may help your value, as the accessories may not have much value on their own due to age, but will help make the cameras more attractive...


You might be surprised by how quickly 28MBps 60p video can get choppy on an even slightly "older" computer, so don't underestimate that component - my "aging" i7 desktop that handled 17MBps smoothly sometimes has trouble with it... I'm hoping to hang in a little longer since 4K is probably coming sooner rather than later!
Dave Blackhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 03:56 AM   #18
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: York, England
Posts: 1,323
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelsey Emuss View Post
Only dangerous if I am buying sight unseen?? For the record I'm not an idiot...just looking for some feedback.
Sorry, didn't mean to offend, was more a speech term than an indication of your competence.

Do be careful though, I've played with smaller sony cameras in the past as was not impressed by the usability in full manual mode in a hurry. Yes it could be done, but not quickly. My guess is you'd end up relying on the automatics more than you think just because it is easier and quicker.

We have a Canon HF G10 that we no longer use very much. It has full manual controls via a dial and a button, and for the average enthusiast it's perfect. In a run & gun situation we and up sticking it on auto simply because it's too fiddly to change the manual settings quickly.

Also, touch screen can be both a blessing and a curse. It's nice to be able to point to something, but when you have tiny icons or 'tabs' in menus and then you need to scroll it's a lot slower than the same interface on the XF100 that has a joystick control.

If you're serious, you need to try it. There is also a danger (not offence intended!) that you could want the change enough that you will emotionally minimise / ignore the negatives in user interface only to regret it later. I've done it myself, and yes I've come to regret it!
__________________
Qualified UAV Pilot with CAA PFAW
Aerial Photo / Aerial Video | Corporate Video Production
Dave Partington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 04:58 AM   #19
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 9,068
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Well, I have a pair of sony cx730's, a pair of 550d's, a xh-a1 and a sony nex ea50, if you would tell me I was only allowed to carry just one type of camera with me to shoot a wedding which one I would choose? It would be the cx730's. I"d only would use one beachtek adapter and a cheap chinees shoulder mount for one camera and have 2 tripods with me and a bunch of small and cheap audio recorders and I"m good to go. Minimal budget, maximal return and good image quality and sound.

The top of the line Sony' handicams are very good, they are as good in low light as my 550d's and nex-ea50 with fast lenzes. They have a wide angle lens that goes wider then most much more expensive fixed lens camera's, they have a stabiliser function that will give tripod like footage handheld, their auto focus is excellent, even in low light and the footage is sharp enough, sharper then my large sensor camera's and they even have a build in videolight.

They are not perfect, no, and especially manually controll is limited but the small wheel in front you could manually run exposure with and with touch screen change other parameters, like just pressing where you want the camera to focus, or using face detect or just use the screen to lock and change focus manually. It does take a lot longer to make adjustments through your screen, especially compared to a professional camera but for what I paid for it, the ease of use, the quality they output and the mobility you have with such small devices they where the best investement I made for doing weddings. Also, no need to worry about not looking professional, that just between the ears and once you get over that you will notice your clients will only remember you for what you eventually deliver or put online, not what you used to shoot their wedding.

If you want to see what you can do with these camera's, just pm me and I"ll send a link.
Noa Put is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 06:28 AM   #20
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Apple Valley CA
Posts: 4,866
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Noa hits it on the head - would you rather have a camera with lots of controls that you have to fiddle with, or a camera with limited manual controls that runs reliably in "auto"? Controls are great when you have the time to set things, but in "live fire", I'd rather not HAVE to worry about overriding the camera to get acceptable image quality - yes, I want to have the option, but how much time do you really have when there's one shot at capturing the moment... I'm willing to admit that a camera with good design and firmware can probably beat me to the punch on making needed adjustments.


The wild card on that 650 is that smaller sensor, IMO, and I don't think there's much info on it since the model is new. If you can compare to a CX760 or PJ760 (or the PJ710 with no viewfinder), I think that would be a valid crosscheck before you make a decision. "Newer" may or may not mean better, and sometimes "last years model" may provide a good option.
Dave Blackhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 06:43 AM   #21
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: LIncolnshire, UK
Posts: 2,051
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

I have been using small cameras for years at weddings, and currently have three Panasonic SD700s. The picture quality is excellent and low light performance sees better than my eyes, with solid blacks and good colour.

I don't get noticed with a small camera and that is exactly what I want at a wedding. Automatoc adjustment is way better than older cameras although manuasl are there for when I want. The small cameras also give the ability to move very quickly between shots which I find invaluable and sound quality very good when using an external mic.

I can't think of any advantages at all with using a big camera at a wedding, certainly not with my way of working. If picture quality is good enough for you and your clients, then size does matter - keep it small.

Roger
Roger Gunkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:15 AM   #22
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 259
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Manojlovic View Post
Hey Kelsey.

I'd ask myself first, "what kind of weddings" do i want to continue doing?
If your clientelle prefers a documented day, then this Sony might be fine. Low light performance is a huge deal, so be careful.
Personally, this camcorder isn't what i'd buy..You should check out one of the sites' sponsors. They're local to us..Hamilton Video and Sound.
Yes, the camcorders cost a bit more, but they'll pay off in no time.
The manual controls are totally essential, and it will look much more professional.

If you're looking to get into cinematic, this is another ball of wax..
Hey Peter! Good to see you are still here! Hope all is well. Thanks for your input as usual. I will absolutely check out that site so thanks for posting.

In terms of what I "need"...it's a tough one. I am "just" a documentary style videographer and I throw is some cool shots and creative editing in the Highlight reel just to stay current and stay on my toes creatively. But I have no ambitions of being the next Still Motion.

Currently I am just EMBARRASSED to be showing up with such antiquated equipment yet I have no real interest in sinking $6,000 -$8,000 into a "side job".

I need two cameras and all the "extra's" (extra batteries, lens filters, extra mem cards) and it all adds up. And truthfully who knows how many more years I am going to be doing this??

Lots to think about! Thanks again!
Kelsey Emuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:18 AM   #23
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 259
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
Manual control on these typically means you can control shutter OR aperature, not both. Auto functions are usually VERY good, and can adapt to changing image conditions faster than most operators. Also there are some pretty cool capabilities via touch screen.

Any of the long term Sony owners here could give you the basic rundown on how to set the camera for best results. These are SMALL cameras, controls are what they are, small, limited, and not for everyone (sausage fingered operators will get frustrated fast!). You generally won't have to access controls a lot (thanks to well tuned "intelligent auto"), but you have SOME control in a pinch.

1/8" mic input and a headphone jack are present right side rear, a bit awkward as they are "under" the handstrap, not a problem if you're on tripod or a rig. You get the BOSS "magic eyeball" which is pretty much as good as a steadycam if you're handheld, it's like the gimballed tracking modules on air to air missles, it stays on target! G glass rather than Zeiss, one place they cut a bit of cost.

Here's the one worry I'd have, this new "6xx" series has the general "upscale features" of the older 5xx and 7xx series, but the specs say it's a 4.7mm sensor vs. a 6.3mm on the PJ790 (likely the same as 2012 7xx series cams)... I'm not familiar with your old GL2, but you may or may not take a performance hit in comparison... IOW, you might find the 650 to be adequate to your expectations, or not - the GL2 was a midrange cam if memory serves, and so your "low light" expectations may not be too high to start with? Since this is a new model, I hesitate to comment on whether the performance will do the trick for you... low lux mode on the 7xx series cams usually gives the camera better low light than most people's eyes. A small LED light with a dimmer also works wonders, a little light goes a long way with these cameras.

Download the manual, if this years models aren't posted yet, last years will probably be similar enough - there are ways to optimize these little cameras and squeeze a lot out of them, better to know at least where to poke before you go hands on so you can get an accurate impression - half the time I swear the "review" sites criticize a cam because they are clueless on how to operate it, you'll have better luck asking here!

I've used Sonys for a while, so that's the way I'd lean, but you could also look at Panasonics or Canon - both offer similar cameras in this price range, and there are DVi threads that will give you the low down on them.

You might take a gander at the "shooting with small handycams" thread here, and you'll have to decide whether you "need" a big cam for your shooting style, or to "impress" clients. I have no doubt that you will find the image capture capability of ANY current HD cam to be a big leap over your GL's...



As far as "bundling", let's just say some bundles will make you more, others will lose you money big time! I would NOT package two cameras together, the odds of finding another event videographer that "needs" a pair of cameras, especially "vintage" ones is not so good, IMO... but you probably should put together packages with the accessories you no longer need, that may help your value, as the accessories may not have much value on their own due to age, but will help make the cameras more attractive...


You might be surprised by how quickly 28MBps 60p video can get choppy on an even slightly "older" computer, so don't underestimate that component - my "aging" i7 desktop that handled 17MBps smoothly sometimes has trouble with it... I'm hoping to hang in a little longer since 4K is probably coming sooner rather than later!
LOTS of great info here for me to consider! Thanks. Will def check out some of those forums. And your right about my computer...and the thought of having to upgrade ALL that is daunting again!

Seriously considering taking the trade in value that he offered just for the simplicity of it! Will look into this further for sure! Thanks again!
Kelsey Emuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:20 AM   #24
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 259
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post
Sorry, didn't mean to offend, was more a speech term than an indication of your competence.

Do be careful though, I've played with smaller sony cameras in the past as was not impressed by the usability in full manual mode in a hurry. Yes it could be done, but not quickly. My guess is you'd end up relying on the automatics more than you think just because it is easier and quicker.

We have a Canon HF G10 that we no longer use very much. It has full manual controls via a dial and a button, and for the average enthusiast it's perfect. In a run & gun situation we and up sticking it on auto simply because it's too fiddly to change the manual settings quickly.

Also, touch screen can be both a blessing and a curse. It's nice to be able to point to something, but when you have tiny icons or 'tabs' in menus and then you need to scroll it's a lot slower than the same interface on the XF100 that has a joystick control.

If you're serious, you need to try it. There is also a danger (not offence intended!) that you could want the change enough that you will emotionally minimise / ignore the negatives in user interface only to regret it later. I've done it myself, and yes I've come to regret it!
No problem. Misunderstood. As a woman in this industry I often come across a "Look here little lady" mentality. Sorry I jumped the gun! Thanks again for your insight!
Kelsey Emuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:21 AM   #25
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 259
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Well, I have a pair of sony cx730's, a pair of 550d's, a xh-a1 and a sony nex ea50, if you would tell me I was only allowed to carry just one type of camera with me to shoot a wedding which one I would choose? It would be the cx730's. I"d only would use one beachtek adapter and a cheap chinees shoulder mount for one camera and have 2 tripods with me and a bunch of small and cheap audio recorders and I"m good to go. Minimal budget, maximal return and good image quality and sound.

The top of the line Sony' handicams are very good, they are as good in low light as my 550d's and nex-ea50 with fast lenzes. They have a wide angle lens that goes wider then most much more expensive fixed lens camera's, they have a stabiliser function that will give tripod like footage handheld, their auto focus is excellent, even in low light and the footage is sharp enough, sharper then my large sensor camera's and they even have a build in videolight.

They are not perfect, no, and especially manually controll is limited but the small wheel in front you could manually run exposure with and with touch screen change other parameters, like just pressing where you want the camera to focus, or using face detect or just use the screen to lock and change focus manually. It does take a lot longer to make adjustments through your screen, especially compared to a professional camera but for what I paid for it, the ease of use, the quality they output and the mobility you have with such small devices they where the best investement I made for doing weddings. Also, no need to worry about not looking professional, that just between the ears and once you get over that you will notice your clients will only remember you for what you eventually deliver or put online, not what you used to shoot their wedding.

If you want to see what you can do with these camera's, just pm me and I"ll send a link.
This post was very helpful! Thanks! Really giving me a LOT to consider. I will be sending you a PM and would love to see some footage. Might have some other questions for you also!
Kelsey Emuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:25 AM   #26
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 259
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
Noa hits it on the head - would you rather have a camera with lots of controls that you have to fiddle with, or a camera with limited manual controls that runs reliably in "auto"? Controls are great when you have the time to set things, but in "live fire", I'd rather not HAVE to worry about overriding the camera to get acceptable image quality - yes, I want to have the option, but how much time do you really have when there's one shot at capturing the moment... I'm willing to admit that a camera with good design and firmware can probably beat me to the punch on making needed adjustments.


The wild card on that 650 is that smaller sensor, IMO, and I don't think there's much info on it since the model is new. If you can compare to a CX760 or PJ760 (or the PJ710 with no viewfinder), I think that would be a valid crosscheck before you make a decision. "Newer" may or may not mean better, and sometimes "last years model" may provide a good option.
I guess this ^^ is really my big decision isn't it?? The truth for me is this: I am at a crossroads. I either need to keep the GL2's and slowly be fazed out or I need to upgrade to camera's that aren't going to bankrupt me or require I remortgage my house and squeeze out a few more years.

My filming/editing is strong. People hire me because I do good work and 75% of my business is word of mouth. I only film 12- 18 weddings per year. And frankly I'm just not ready to throw in the towel yet. I still love the work and while I know I have a few years left in me I don't want to purchase $3,000 camneras to stay current.
Kelsey Emuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:27 AM   #27
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 259
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel View Post
I have been using small cameras for years at weddings, and currently have three Panasonic SD700s. The picture quality is excellent and low light performance sees better than my eyes, with solid blacks and good colour.

I don't get noticed with a small camera and that is exactly what I want at a wedding. Automatoc adjustment is way better than older cameras although manuasl are there for when I want. The small cameras also give the ability to move very quickly between shots which I find invaluable and sound quality very good when using an external mic.

I can't think of any advantages at all with using a big camera at a wedding, certainly not with my way of working. If picture quality is good enough for you and your clients, then size does matter - keep it small.

Roger
Again...great points! Thanks!
Kelsey Emuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 10:49 AM   #28
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 626
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Hi Kelsey,

Everyone will have their own opinion on what camera to get, for various reasons. Personally, while I am very impressed with the images from some of the new tiny cams, I could never use one as a MAIN camera, especially for run-and-gun situations like weddings. I've always used hand-held cameras, such as Sony VX-2000 and FX-7, which are reasonably sized and also have a lot of manual controls, which I find a necessity with the constantly changing lighting and other issues we encounter.

I do have a Canon HV-20 which is much smaller than my Sony cams, and I use this as a B-roll or "baclony cam". The image is excellent, on par with the larger 3-chip Sony FX-7 main camera, but its lack of manual controls make it totally unsuitable for me as a main camera. There is not time to fiddle with menus or joysticks when I need to change settings on the fly to get a shot.

I have been looking for a new main camera and the one I would buy today is the Panasonic AC-90. It has the same general size I'm used to, and manual rings for zoom, focus, and iris that I feel more comfortable having. Also has XLR audio with volume controls, dual-recording slots for extended record time or backup mode (record to both cards at once). Yes, it has small chips but the gain is said to be incredibly clean at high levels. The image stabilization also gets good marks.

Just my two cents ;-)

Jeff Pulera
Jeff Pulera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 11:30 AM   #29
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: York, England
Posts: 1,323
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelsey Emuss View Post
No problem. Misunderstood. As a woman in this industry I often come across a "Look here little lady" mentality. Sorry I jumped the gun! Thanks again for your insight!
Haha, well.... 'Kelsey" is not a name I've come across before so I had no idea if you were male or female, and I gave up judging people by their names a very long time ago.

There's lots of awesome female photographers and videographers around and being female also gives you lots of advantages too. Why anyone in this industry puts people down based on gender is beyond me!

You'll likely notice things men won't (and visa versa), and of course it's likely you don't have to leave the room while the bride gets ready!
__________________
Qualified UAV Pilot with CAA PFAW
Aerial Photo / Aerial Video | Corporate Video Production
Dave Partington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2013, 11:36 AM   #30
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK
Posts: 3,445
Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post
Haha, well.... 'Kelsey" is not a name I've come across before so I had no idea if you were male or female, and I gave up judging people by their names a very long time ago.
The only 'Kelsey' that I had heard of is the actor Kelsey Grammer the star of 'Frasier'. However looking in Wikipedia I must have been going round with my eyes shut all these years ignoring the many Kelseys that there are around

Quote:
Kelsey was the 201st most popular name for girls born in the United States in 2007. It was among the top 50 most popular names for girls there in the 1990s. It was last ranked among the top 1,000 most common names for boys there in 1996. It was the 528th most common name for women in the United States in the 1990 census. Kelsey was ranked among the top 100 names for girls born in Scotland in 2007. It was also among the top 100 names for girls born in England and Wales in the late 1990s.
Nigel Barker is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Special Interest Areas > Wedding / Event Videography Techniques

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:12 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network