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Old June 5th, 2013, 10:23 AM   #46
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Re: Heckled during speeches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
It was Al that said this, not the persons he was targeting...We never said we feel special, we said we do whatever we can not to disturb the guests but that it's not always possible to prevent it completely.


Why? The priest did not hire or pay me, he is there to do his job (and getting paid for it), I"m there to do mine. The Church is not his personal property, it's a public place with a set of general rules, they do allow videographers to enter but they don't want us to disturb the ceremony and that is something I never do. I did say if he would have seen me move and told me to go back into position during the ceremony I would have left the church, no use in standing like a fool pretending you are filming something while you can't. I crossed the line very carefully but not by pushing it too much, just enough so I could do what I was paid for and that is what "professionals" do according to Al, to make sure they adapt and get the job done.

This is indeed a interesting discussion.

Just trying to extract a couple of things from the whole host of comments, that seem to point a lot to who we feel owns the set per say.

You have my comment about you guys thinking you are the star which obviously doesn't set well. And probably not a fair statement for me to make as it is too general.

Then you have comments like Noa's above that are in line with some other posters regarding the Church being a public building and the Priest being a hired gun just like you. I have to say in my region Priest and clergy are highly regarded, beloved if you will, and so is the church. And in the context of this conversation no Priest is regarded as a hired gun, nor is the church viewed as a public space where everyone has there own set of rules. That may obviously vary in your region but i find that shocking.

And for all those "Church Ladies" I just continued to shower them with kindness and over time I wound up with an ally in most cases.

Let me make it clear as I have been called out on it, I'm not claiming my way is right or your way is wrong.
I'm perplexed by the attitude that if someone pays me then it's ok to feel above every sense of authority and that it puts me on even keel with anyone else who may be compensated.

I shoot a lot in hospitals and corporate offices, where lots of important work is going on. Where other people in the building do not regard what i am doing as important.
It can be a bit stifling sometimes but I have to bow to the fact that when I'm in a hospital or corporate office there is nothing that I am doing that trumps the already established order of business. Very similar to the way the clergy regards me when I'm shooting a wedding. I am peripheral to the bigger picture. I can't make the claim that we're all being compensated here.

When i come in to film a cardiac specialist, the doctor in the next office does not care about that. He cares about noise that my carts might make coming in or tearing down. The lights that we are setting up, invading their space, asking them to be quiet as they try to conduct more important business. Or even asking a whole department to stay off the internet while you livestream this one doctor. (that always goes over big) You learn to work with people all the time. And if you think Priest can be tough, try doctors.

In conferences I request that my riser is center aisle, no more than 50 ft from the stage. More and more, attendees are complaining of their view being blocked (even if there sleeping). For this reason it's rare that I get a shot less then a 100ft these days.

The only thing I can do these days is work hard to manage logistics with client expectations. And this is all done beforehand. It doesn't mean that I'm going to always get what I want, I don't, but the expectations of EVERYBODY in the venue are managed in a way that we are on the same page. More often then not I have to do the job in ways we never planned to suit the whims of other parties in the venue. I don't have that option as Noa would to just leave the building if you will. Once I get off the plane, I HAVE to make it work. I can't come back empty handed because the conditions weren't satisfactory or I couldn't get the shot that i wanted, or thought you expected. That's a luxury.
But at the end of the day I still manage to bring back a product that meets or exceeds the clients expectations.

Anyway, I think a lot of it has to do with where we view ourselves in the pecking order and how well we manage or mismanage client expectations.

Truly interesting discussion though.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 11:42 AM   #47
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Re: Heckled during speeches

Al my apologies if I misunderstand your position, but I get the impression from the tone of your posts that you are not an experienced wedding videographer, doing most of your work in the commercial field .I make that observation as many of your comments are about the corporate side of things, whereas, as I pointed out in my previous post they are totally different requirements.

I also don't really understand your constantly reiterated stance that many wedding videographers seem to feel that they are the 'star' or 'control the set'. I don't pick this up at all, rather that they are trying to find the best compromise to achieve the end product that the couple want, whilst maintaining respect and professionalism.

After nearly 30 years and almost 2000 weddings, plus countless commercial work, I find myself puzzled by some of your criticism of a number of the points expressed about occasional problems encountered, if you are an experienced wedding professional.

Roger
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Old June 5th, 2013, 12:35 PM   #48
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Re: Heckled during speeches

Roger,
My above statement was: *****You have my comment about you guys thinking you are the star which obviously doesn't set well. And probably not a fair statement for me to make as it is too general.*****

No apologies needed, it's a discussion, an exchange of ideas and I'm not thin skinned. I appreciate your opinion even when it differs from mine. I don't see my comments as criticism , no more then I see your comments as criticism of me.

I have made it clear on more then one occasion that I am not a wedding videographer, I occasionally dabble by special request.

But I have filmed more weddings then I want to remember. I left the wedding business in probably 2004. I started doing weddings when the camera was hooked to the recorder by a cord. I would say I have as much experience as anybody on this thread in that arena.
But I don't think that it takes that much experience to understand the subject at hand.

It's obvious our views are just a response to how we react to different situations, and often times how we react to the same situation.

If you look at the thread everyone doesn't agree with you. Everyone doesn't agree with me.

Is agreement necessary to have a discussion? Is that the only time you can learn from a discussion when everybody agrees with you?

As I also said in my last post, this has truly been a interesting discussion.

And what I mean by that is there is a lot of positions to ponder when this discussion is long over. That's sometimes how we learn Roger.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 02:02 PM   #49
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Re: Heckled during speeches

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I left the wedding business in probably 2004
I was at a point of asking the same question Roger has because my impression was also that it was a longer time ago you did any weddings, but since you did write that you did so many weddings I was not sure and didn't want to offend you. A lot has changed the past years in the wedding industry and especially in regard to clients expectations, you don't seem to be up to date any more about what that is as your opinion is based on weddings 10 years and longer ago.

About priests, the church, respect for the holy house etc, for my country and for the weddings I have done the past 8 years I can say that at least 90% that get married in a church are non believers, they do it because it's tradition, because it looks so nice, because the bride wants to have her red carpet. After the wedding they never go to church again, unless it's for their child communion at the age of 6 and 12 and that's also mainly a tradition and to show of how nice clothes they are wearing.

There have been quite some newsreports about priests taking abuse of little children the past years so there is not much respect for the church here.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #50
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Re: Heckled during speeches

Quote:************************************
I left the wedding business in probably 2004
I was at a point of asking the same question Roger has because my impression was also that it was a longer time ago you did any weddings, but since you did write that you did so many weddings I was not sure and didn't want to offend you. A lot has changed the past years in the wedding industry and especially in regard to clients expectations, you don't seem to be up to date any more about what that is as your opinion is based on weddings 10 years and longer ago.

About priests, the church, respect for the holy house etc, for my country and for the weddings I have done the past 8 years I can say that at least 90% that get married in a church are non believers, they do it because it's tradition, because it looks so nice, because the bride wants to have her red carpet. After the wedding they never go to church again, unless it's for their child communion at the age of 6 and 12 and that's also mainly a tradition and to show of how nice clothes they are wearing.

There have been quite some newsreports about priests taking abuse of little children the past years so there is not much respect for the church here. *******************************

Noah,
Not as much has changed as you would think. In 2004 cinematic multi camera wedding video was alive and well, at least in the U.S. I understand if you didn't find it until later.
While I don't shoot weddings as a business, I often shoot first or second cam for a friend or colleague, whether it's dslr, ex1 sliders etc. The wedding business has changed less then you think. You seem to speak about it like it's some secret society. After all the conversation is about interactions with clergy and church folk. That hasn't changed.

But the fundamental conversation had nothing to do with my experience. It was about behavior and protocol in the church and as it pertains to the clergy.

You seem to be struggling to take the conversation to another place? Now you're talking about Priest who abuse little children? That never happens in the U.S..? Besides good Priest don't abuse children. Yet you make it sound like we should indict them all. Like it's relevant to this discussion?

Pointing out who is a believer an a non believer and going to church only to show off nice clothes?
You seem to be able to tell what other people are thinking , what other people value?

What next, more bad Priest stories? Maybe you'll take on Nuns next.. Perhaps boogie men? You're rambling.

It's ok if we disagree, but this is ridiculous.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 06:08 PM   #51
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Re: Heckled during speeches

Quote:
You seem to be able to tell what other people are thinking , what other people value?
Yes I do, just the way you seem to know how some of us videographers think or what we value. :)

This is going nowhere, time to move on.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 03:21 AM   #52
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Re: Heckled during speeches

I agree it's time to move on, and this will be my last point on the matter of clergy in this thread

I agree with Al that all clergy shouldn't be blamed for the actions of a few, but I think the basic point that Noa was making and certainly my own thoughts, is that because of the actions of a few, the general public perception of the Church as a whole has subtly changed, with less blind trust than there used to be. To that end, it is up to the clergy to offer a more welcoming and open face to help restore confidence and part of that may well be a more cooperative approach to non church professionals both with weddings and other areas. That means meaningful discussion over requirements rather than a blanket and authoritarian imposition of personal interpretation of the rules in my opinion.

Roger.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 03:36 AM   #53
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Re: Heckled during speeches

While I agree that Al's statements can be viewed as over generalisation, which he himself admitted was the case, there is merit to what he says about attitude and respect. Not wishing to speak for other Videographers, but I myself can get so caught up in getting my shots I can ignore the impact it has on others and it's good to be reminded that I must put my work in perspective of the day. However whilst the idea of respecting guests, clergy, and any Wedding Professional is a good one, in practise each Wedding is different, has it's own challenges and frequently we're called on to make on the fly choices that balance the needs of getting the required shots with the need to be both unobtrusive and respectful of the other Wedding professionals and Guests. A fine balancing act I hope I usually get right, but I can't always guarantee it - to be frank I'm not that good 100% of the time. Like any profession I have my off days, where I make the wrong call.

Remember as with anyone that works Weddings, we have certain obligations and needs too that we must stick up for, it's our job to do so. Blocking guests isn't ideal, but the issues of the Ceremony and Speeches aside, I feel it's the 1st Dance and Cake Cutting where I'm more a nuisance. Small confined dance floor, lots of guests surrounding it. To get any shot, I have to be at the front, not only taking up a space a valued guest would like but also blocking the view of other guests. The Photographer, or shall I say Photographers, as like Policemen they frequently travel in pairs are doing much the same.
At the end of the day guests must also respect that such Professionals are there doing a job for the benefit of the Bride and Groom - some I'm sure don't respect you for that but until they invent remote controlled flying micro cameras I can master control from a Operation Van outside, I'm going to be around to offend anyone who wants to be offended.
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