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Old June 21st, 2013, 12:43 AM   #31
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Hi Mark

Nice to see someone in our neck of the woods! I think a BD player is the way to go BUT you also need to connect it up for them, plug it in and show them how to use it when you deliver the product. People are remarkably ignorant even about DVD players and yes, I have seen clients even with a DVD player set up on the menu in 4:3 and they quite happily watch all their movies in letterbox. Dunno about your area but even in Perth people don't seem to be too enthusiastic about BluRay! and while most will have a big flat screen TV you find they have a $30 DVD player sitting under it.

It is really a shame to shoot in HD and deliver in SD and if you didn't supply them with a BD player but supplied the product in both DVD and BD disks, I wonder if most would ever actually go out and buy a BluRay player?? I tend to supply the bride with HD footage on a thumb drive too. The one thing a bride will do is show off her wedding video to her friends and normally it's at their place or a local hangout and she brings along her notebook ...For me that's important as I'm unlikely to get any referrals from then watching the video at home BUT I will get friends her own age watching it on a notebook or tablet and unlike Mum and Dad or Nana..the bride's friend's are potential clients.

Who supplies video that the bride can run easily on her iPad ?? All the young ladies nowdays seem to not leave home without an iPad so maybe a mini USB stick with the video would be a good idea??

Chris
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Old June 21st, 2013, 02:39 AM   #32
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Hi Chris,

I will this season switch to blu-ray only. No DVD. If they don't have a BD player (which is the minority among the potential couples I surveyed at the last bridal fair) I remind them when they buy one to buy an HDMI lead as they are not supplied with one in the box (who knows why; it's like printers seldom come with a printer cable).

There is no need to set it up for them as they plug it into power and stick the HDMI into the TV or home theatre receiver. They work the same as a DVD player so why do they need to be shown how to use it?

I think it is well worth educating potential clients to the differences between SD & HD as I can use that as a point of difference of why they should choose me, and why my prices are higher than most of my competitors. I am also a bit of an audiophile, so I would rather they saw my work on a nice HDTV but with sound through a home theatre system. In my past life in TV, we used to say sound is 70% of television. I demo my work to potential clients on my home theatre system to show it off in its best possible light.

I don't particularly want my work displayed on an ipad or phone or laptop. It's OK for the highlights but not the long form movie length version. If they want to do that they can rip the blu-ray easy enough to an MKV and play it wherever, but I won't supply the full length version in those formats (not for free anyway).

It shouldn't be our concern if they want to play it on their ipad. If you supply the final product on Blu-ray they can convert it themselves with free software, PC or Mac, to go on any device they like or upload it. If they can't figure it out I'm happy to show them for free, or charge extra to do it for them. Or they can ask any teenager.

USB drives - yeah, but not for weddings. It just doesn't seem high-end enough as a tangible end product, unless they are jewel-encrusted custom ones I guess! How do they skip past the speeches? Do you split the wedding into separate files in lieu of chapters? And what file format do you choose? PC or OSX disk structure? I have been down this road with corporate clients and it is a world of hurt.

Ipads don't have USB plugs either so there goes that option.

The best format I can produce at present is full HD on Blu-ray disk authored via Encore so that's what they get, but once fast broadband is a reality I'm sure it will all be in the cloud.

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Old June 21st, 2013, 04:08 AM   #33
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Having said all that, I drift over to here and read this:

No Encore CC

I'm still using FCP7 for weddings, Adobe CS5.5 for other stuff and Avid at my other job so this came as a shock. Encore is the common app on all systems. I was planning to upgrade my system to CC at the end of the year. I may have to get CS6 in the meantime just for Encore. Our Avid was going to add CC as well this or next year.

I still believe BD will be around for longer than Adobe & Apple think. A strange decision indeed.

Cheers
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Old June 21st, 2013, 04:29 AM   #34
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Hi Mark

Good point since the iPad has neither an USB port or a SD card slot like Android Tablets but you can buy both an Apple "adapter" for either (quite pricey too!!!)

I would never consider supplying just an online video or just on USB/SD card either as the item physically does not reflect the value of your service " For all that money, all I get is a link/this tiny little thing" I think people do expect a tangible and value looking product for their hard earned money so a set of either DVD's or BD disks in printed cases have become the norm.

I have always figured that it would be good marketing to give the bride a neat little mini USB so it stays in her handbag and can be easily shown to friends who can become new clients for you. The cost of a USB drive is quite feasible as a giveaway besides the disk set but I don't think that it's worth doing that as a freebie if one had to also buy an over-priced USB adapter from Apple for each client!!

You can actually make a sorta menu on a USB if you just number the files intelligently! so instead of having a file called "prep.mp4" You would make a "0001groomprep.mp4" then "0002brideprep.mp4" and so on thruout all the clips so they will appear on the drive with recognisable names and in time order too!
It does give a USB delivery a menu of sorts so the bride can show her mates, just the ceremony clip for instance.
It would be a lot easier for them to carry around instead of trying to disconnect the BD player and cable etc etc!! However it still doesn't solve anything for iPads without un-necessary expense on our side.

The one big asset of supplying a BD player is that you know 100% that the disks will work (as you have already tested them) However it's still an extra $100 out your package costing (plus an HDMI cable too!)

Sadly I still think that brides (they watch it mostly) need a huge amount of education on IQ!! I did a survey on a forum and most responded that they couldn't tell the difference. They are more interested in how pretty the bridesmaid's dresses look ... most wouldn't even notice the resolution but screw up the dresses so the delicate apricot looks orange and they will pick that up in a flash ..in SD or HD!!

Chris
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Old June 21st, 2013, 05:02 AM   #35
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Hi Chris,

That USB file naming is worth a play with, and yes, a suitable custom USB stick that wasn't too cheesy would be a good idea! But like you, I see it as additional to the main movie, not a replacement.

I would only supply a BD player as a deal-sealer, not as the norm. Likewise with the USB thing; I wouldn't buy the Apple adapter. Getting the files onto their device isn't my problem.

Educating the brides is definitely worth it. Maybe if they can't tell the difference they have never seen the difference. They need to see both from about 2-3m away. Beyond that the difference isn't apparent. Show them fine dress detail, hair, foliage, etc and people's faces on wide shots.

Not everyone will get it, just like some people are happy to listen to music from an ipod through crappy speakers. I'm not! :)

Cheers,
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Old June 21st, 2013, 06:24 AM   #36
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince Pachiano View Post
What happens when the Bride's computer crashes AND you are no longer in business?
A couple options I can think of. One, the file was uploaded to Vimeo, so there's a fair chance the file uploaded to Vimeo would still be there in the many years to come (videos I uploaded to Youtube years ago are still there) so she could simply re-download the file. Two, it would be wise to encourage clients only receiving a digital copy to make copies of the file to multiple sources (thumb drives, hard drives, computers, and/or cloud storage).

Now consider the alternative, optical disc. What happens if it gets scratched (which is a common occurrence among long term optical disc usage) and you're out of business? If you didn't upload the entire file online, they can't simply re-download it. So did they make copies? You probably gave them at least three original copies, which they gave two of to their parents, so hopefully their parents still have it and can locate it. As for the client making copies, it takes more tech savvy skills to copy optical discs than it does to copy a digital file.

I'll also say regarding videos I have on Youtube from years ago; I can still go to the link on Youtube at a moments notice, but as for the DVD copies I made of them, I'm not sure if I could find in my house where the DVD copies of all those videos are now. Consider the wedding video scene in the movie Silver Linings Playbook; the guy loses his wedding video (on VHS) and goes crazy; if he could have simply gone online to watch it after losing it he could have avoided going crazy and then assaulting his parents and dealing with the police in the aftermath. I'm just saying we need to keep our clients from going to prison. ;)
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Old June 21st, 2013, 06:24 AM   #37
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Mark, the philosophy of only supplying the highest quality that you can, is an interesting view point. I can see the logic of pride in your work and only wanting it viewed in the quality that you have produced it, but I don't find myself in agreement. In my experience, the technical quality of the video is far less important to the couple than the content. As Chris said, get the bridesmaids dress colours wrong and the bride will notice immediately, but SD or HD makes little difference to them.

Although I film and edit in HD, I rarely get asked to deliver in HD and even when I have, it is usually because the client has an HD tv and doesn't realise that they need a BR player to view. I always offer to put their wedding video on an iPad if they have one, because if that is a format that they want to show their friends, then good luck to them. I want them to book me for the the way that I work and the content of the end product, it really makes no difference if they want it on VHS as far as I am concerned.

A high cost product doesn't have to have a high cost presentation system to justify the expense, the value is in the pleasure from watching the end product. As an analogy, a meal in an extremely expensive and up market restaurant, gives you absolutely no end product at all, you are paying for a better overall experience. If you choose to put ketchup on your chef crafted meal, then that is your choice even though the chef may not be impressed!

Roger

Last edited by Roger Gunkel; June 21st, 2013 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Double entry
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Old June 21st, 2013, 07:23 AM   #38
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Actually just for interest not one bride/groom who has booked me has ever asked about the format..all they want is a wedding video end of story.. I think one groom did ask me if I used HD cameras and I told him that SD only cameras are no longer made. He never asked any other questions. However (maybe just ignorance) they always say to me "We are going on honeymoon for 2 weeks so we will email you when you get back so we can see the DVD's" ... ! Note they expect DVD's not anything else

Sadly you have to supply what the bride expects and here she still expects DVD's ...Sure I'd love them to see my footage in full HD but I doubt whether they want to go thru the hassle of either getting or being given a BD player (and finding a spot for it) and then how is Grandma going to watch it so I tend to take the easiest route for them not for me.

Content is absolute king with weddings and if they had a VHS player and you did it on VHS and the content was good they would be over the moon. No technical people only look at content ..I was watching a crime show a few weeks ago and it was a case that had spanned a good 30 years so along with the pristine footage was some original crime footage probably around 200 line resolution ... I remarked to my wife about the old footage and it's quality and she said "What old footage?" She was watching the story ..I was examining the camera angles and image quality.

Oh Eric there would be nothing wrong to uploading the video and also putting the files on disk and supplying those to the bride as a backup

Chris
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Old June 21st, 2013, 10:49 AM   #39
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Whittle View Post
Hi Chris,

I don't particularly want my work displayed on an ipad or phone or laptop. It's OK for the highlights but not the long form movie length version. If they want to do that they can rip the blu-ray easy enough to an MKV and play it wherever, but I won't supply the full length version in those formats (not for free anyway).

Cheers
Mark,

Roger was much more polite than I am. I have been "in business" selling images since 1985. This industry has been good to me. I have covered everything from the Olyimpic Games to the Sundance Film Festival. It is a business that feeds my family and I operate it as such. That means I serve the needs of my clients the best way possible with no ego attached to "my work". It is a product and its only value lies in its worth to the client. I have seen countless "demanding artist" types come and go. It is bride and grooms wedding not yours. Like it or not, "your work" is going to end up collecting dust at some point never to be viewed again. The more people that can possibly view it while the work and excitement are fresh the more opportunity for referrals. IMHO.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 12:07 PM   #40
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Steven - I do have an ego (not as big as you may think) and I do take pride in my work, sometimes at the expense of good business sense. I am not apologising for that. Demanding artist? Nope. Most of my TV career I churned out cheap & dirty regional TV ads where content sure wasn't king and the technical quality was not much better. Remember cutting on 1" C format? :)

I, too, have been in the industry since 1985. I also don't believe you don't have an ego if you have survived in this industry this long. I don't mean this disrespectfully; I use ego to mean self-confidence in your abilities rather than self importance.

I am surprised that so many of you disagree with me. Is Blu-ray only too elitist? I figured that as no-one else in my market is doing blu-ray, that is my unique selling point. It takes me another day to create a DVD version I am happy with, and this is a cost I have to wear. By doing only blu-ray it would save me a day's work. If they also want a Vimeo/YouTube version plus iPad version etc, I wouldn't make any money. OK if its a 5 minute corporate presenter, but a two hour wedding takes hours to encode.

Roger - I agree that content is way more important than technical quality. My wife actually keeps me realistic here, or I'll spend too much time tweaking. If quality was so unimportant though, why do we upgrade our equipment every few years? Why do we edit in HD if DVD is fine?

I am interested in all your opinions as this forum has made me see things from different points of view many times before. Living as I do in regional Australia, chances are most of you are in a more sophisticated market than me so I value the input.

Thanks
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Old June 21st, 2013, 01:30 PM   #41
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Hey Mark,

No offence is intended. This is an awesome discussion board. I read your decision to go BR only as a personal choice, not a wise business decision. You guys are all clearly stating that the wedding market is not BluRay centered yet. So why make it your only offering? It is kind of like opening up an ice cream store and saying I am only going to sell vanilla because my freezer is not big enough for more offerings. You will sell some vanilla, but those that wanted chocolate will not be back.

I already said the artist comment came from your displeasure over the thought of "your work" being viewed under less than optimal conditions. I said earlier in this thread about how I feel, that we, as video producers must also be technicians. It behooves us to assist the less technically savvy in utilizing our product.

Yes I remember 1" C. Thank God I can not claim to have edited tape with a razor blade, but I was there. I have carried VTRs on a shoulder strap and shot with the attached camera head! JVC was huge on those things! I prefer dock-able to mean changing from a studio back to a tape recording back on a Sony broadcast camera. And of course, it is not tape anymore.


Steve
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 03:24 AM   #42
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Random thought... This is something I've only become aware of recently, so apologies if it's old news. Adobe Encore has reached end of life, and there's no new optical disc burning program in the creative suite (though you can still install Encore CS6).

http://www.adobe.com/products/encore/faq.html

Is the Encore CS6 version the final release of this product?
Yes. The trend in the video and broadcast industry is moving away from physical media distribution. The
future is in cloud and streaming content. Therefore we are focusing more on products that deliver to
streaming services. For example, Adobe Media Encoder and Adobe Premiere Pro CC include a new
feature allowing users to create iPad-ready video with QuickTime chapter markers. The Encore CS6
version will be the final release of this product.

Presumably, similar thinking is behind the fact that the built-in drives on Macs don't support BluRay, and the newest Macbooks lack internal DVD drives altogether.

Last edited by Adrian Tan; June 22nd, 2013 at 03:58 AM.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 02:52 PM   #43
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Adrian,
I enjoy your posts because you often participate in the non technical aspect of our business. Here is some food for thought. And I am going to sound a little radical for the sake of conversation. But it is based on truth.
The things you mentioned above are true. Our software providers are headed in a cloud based only direction. Unfortunately for us that is an area of our industry that is not being designed for us the consumer of those services. It is a marketing dream for software providers. We are going to be forced into it because they want it, not me. Here is the catch:
It is their cloud, not yours, and never will be yours. But your own intellectual property and YOUR products will reside there under their control. You will not own software anymore. You will subscribe and pay dearly and often to use it. And with the cloud content servers, are you going to allow them to control your access to your product and property? That is what it is about! It is all getting wrapped up in a slick marketing package making it look like it is all for you, it is not. It is a complete reversal of the way everything has been in years past for all of us. We used to buy a disk of software they made and we owned a license to use it. Everything was in our hands. With the cloud, you have nothing, and they even have your work. But thatís OK. You may have signed up for that convenient automatic deduction from your checking account to ensure your service is never interrupted. Are you kidding me!!! Ultimately that is what they want! Control of your work, you will submit and pay over and over again while giving them the right to stick their hand in your bank account every month. You will have to; paying them will come before your house payment because you canít make your house payment without access to your product. I know this is an extreme example, but think before you jump into the corporate abyss of subscription services!!!

Steve
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 05:51 PM   #44
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

Well said Steve +1

Roger
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 10:57 PM   #45
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Re: Delivering Only Online Files

I deliver DVD and BluRay in all package. On paper BluRay is am add on for $300. But i always give them out free, as in giving customer a discount.

Dvd and BluRay allows me to better deliver the final movie in a more presentable way. There menu (sometimes bi-lingual) navigation, chapters, closed captioning., behind the scene footage after the main movie. Overall a Hollywood dvd experience.

Since last year, i also oofer usb thumbdrive. It contains all the edited movie in .mp4. Then i also use encore to export adobe flash so client can view it on computer just like viewing a DVD.

I agree with some of you about distributing a professional designed package dvd is good marketing too. Brides can give a copy to their grandparents easily. Its not the same with USB thumbdrive given to grandmom.

Each state has its own state sales tax law. In general, if it's a service without tangible product delivered, AND NO TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP of media, there is no need to collect sales tax.
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