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Old June 26th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #16
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

I take a different view in that the MP4's I deliver are 1920x1080 and at a decent bit rate - the point being to deliver something which will be of value in the future even though clients may not appreciate its value at present. Future-proofing if you like. And that may be a way of ensuring recommendations far into the future.

Also it can only be a matter of time before the technical quality available via regular DVD falls short of client expectations what with the relentless march forward of high def TV transmissions, 4,000 screens etc.

I always show videos on an Ipad 3 and on a Galaxy S3 in my consultations. This illustrates their value to clients and certainly gets their interest. It also helps differentiate me from the competition.

For me to produce an MP4 in addition to a regular DVD is not a lot of extra work, it just ties down a machine for what can be a very lengthy render. And of course the hard costs are low.

I would re-interate my earlier point that you don't really need chapters in MP4's because of devices ability to scrub in an instant. I'd say that you don't really need a chapter screen in regular DVDs either - certainly in Vegas you can insert chapter markers and then set up the burn in DVD Architect so that the client can skip around simply by pressing the chapter buttons on their remote. No cheesy menu screen and lots of marker / chapter points.

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Old June 26th, 2013, 01:39 AM   #17
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

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No cheesy menu screen and lots of marker / chapter points.
I thought about this as wel a lot, in a movie you also have scene's in the menu to but I never use them, I just watch the film from beginning to end and if just want to see a certain part again I find skipping forward inside the movie faster then to go back to the menusystem and go through the different pages.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 03:55 AM   #18
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

Another point I meant to add is the difference in the ability of screens to show the full range.

Typically a TV will show 16-235 whereas as computer tablet or smartphone will show 0-255. OK I'm oversimplifying but please bear with me.

The media you feed your NLE will have some bearing. In my case I'm using mainly 5DII files and Panasonic AVCHD 1920x1080 50p files which are at the 0-255 end.

What this means is that if you edit to optimise for computer viewing your end product will look more contrasty on a TV than you intended, sometimes unpleasantly so. And if you edit to optimise for TV viewing your product will look washed out on a computer.

My workflow to help get around this in Vegas is to edit as is for MP4's, but for DVDs to add Vegas's somewhat confusing computerRGB to studioRGB effect to the bus ( so that it is applied to all the video tracks including nested projects ).

In the future when TVs can routinely show a wider range then the MP4 version will look a lot better on those TVs than will the "old" DVDs.

The MP4's look spectacular on the Ipad 3 by the way :- )

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Old June 26th, 2013, 04:11 AM   #19
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

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Originally Posted by Chris Harding View Post

It's the same as buying bluray burners and getting blank media in and spending hours getting them right on your system when bride's have never asked for a BD disk.

Chris
I finished a wedding yesterday and asked the bride "How many copies on Blu-ray?"
"She replied, All four, thanks".

I market as HD though. Before I did no-one asked. Many didn't realise it is possible to have their wedding on Blu-ray, the rest couldn't care less. I find it is a way to get the fellas interested, as a lot are techno tragics like many of us. I don't go on about technical stuff though or they both lose interest!

Guillermo, Premiere Pro CS6 & Final Cut X both I believe can export chapter points on quicktime files that can use poster frames like you would use in DVD menus, so you could export MP4s that way. Chris's/Roger's way though would work on pretty much any device/player.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 04:22 AM   #20
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

Although I offer my weddings on DVD, BD, MP4 etc and show an example on iPad, I never get asked for anything except dvd except for once only, a couple of years back when I was asked for a BD.

It's all very well future proofing your work for the client, but how far into the future will that be for? We just don't know whether in 5 years time something totally different will come along and all our future proofing will prove to be a total waste of time. As far as I am concerned, I supply for what the market demand is now, not what it might or might no be.

BD is a gap filler with far less take up than dvd, and there are countless examples of future audio and video technology that have been developed then fallen by the wayside. Betamax, Video disc, Mini DVD, DAT, Digital Cassette, Mini Disc etc. When there is a demand for something different then I will supply it, but I won't bust a gut supplying a market that isn't there.

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Old June 26th, 2013, 06:58 AM   #21
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

Good point Mark

I guess the guys might be interested in the newer technology and it might even prompt them to buy a player. I however still have little interest shown (like Roger) in media formats probably thru lack of education.

I wonder how many grooms actually excitedly watch the wedding video? I signed up a new bride on Monday and the groom to be hastily disappeared out the room telling the bride to do whatever she thought was good! I rarely have a groom who participates eagerly in pre-wedding discussions!

Chris
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Old June 26th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #22
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

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Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel View Post
As far as I am concerned, I supply for what the market demand is now, not what it might or might no be.
When there is a demand for something different then I will supply it, but I won't bust a gut supplying a market that isn't there.

Roger
Well there is a demand where I am. I am not the only one in my fairly small market doing Blu-rays, and, as I said in the thread on file based output only, I was toying with the idea of blu-ray exclusively at the expense of DVD, purely because one of my competitors is doing that already.

"Bust a gut", "spending hours getting them [Blu-rays] right on your system..." Is authoring Blu-rays difficult for you guys? Since I went HD 3 years ago it has been easier making a blu-ray than a dvd. Plus I can put well over 2 hours of video if I have to without compressing the hell out of it or resorting to dual layer disks.

The reason I prefer BD is it saves me time, as I don't need to downconvert an SD version and re-author for dvd.

As for the future proofing argument, I'm not bothered about what future formats we might face, I just want to provide them the best we can at the moment. BD is already 5 years old. DVD is easily 15 years old.

If there is no demand in your market, good for you. As I said, two of my competitors do HD, and one has abandoned SD altogether. While I don't think that's a good idea, he is getting plenty of work despite pretty much telling the customer what they are going to have (a bit like Apple!).

Cheers,
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Old June 27th, 2013, 02:59 AM   #23
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

The future proofing I have described is not the shot in the dark some seem to think.

Currently many DVD players make a very good job of upscaling standard definition to play on 1920x1080 TVs - as I'm sure we all know. I'm sure we will see similar capabilities in forthcoming players designed to work with 4000 screens and a player starting with a current high def file rather than a standard def file is bound to make a far better job of it. TV screens are bound to get higher and higher def simply because of the march towards using them for browsing the net and email and that will include a 0-255 capability (maybe they will also have a 16-235 play mode so that old DVDs don't look quite so bad as they might otherwise).

Alternatively there is a chance for an upsell to previous clients in due course though its hard to imagine it as a money spinner.

We are not talking about emerging technologies here that may or may not catch on and if you're not running forwards you're running backwards.

Roger I always find your posts insightful and oozing with real world experience so I'm a little surprised that you don't appear to have embraced the "unique selling point" angle presenting to clients something that many at first don't even realise they want. It reminds me in some ways of the 4:3 / 16:9 conundrum a few years back.

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Old June 27th, 2013, 03:22 AM   #24
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

Hi Pete

I had the opportunity to watch one of my own weddings at a bride's house on a huge 60" TV and a pretty much ordinary DVD player but obviously quite recent as the upscaling was awesome. I very much doubt whether any bride could tell the difference between that and full HD as she isn't pixel peeping like we do!

OK, I also must be going through a day where my IQ has dropped from normal down to that of a complete idiot but what exactly are you talking about regarding the "unique selling point" angle that Roger seems to have missed? He might have missed the advantage but I didn't even grasp the angle!! Please explain ...SLOWLY! Just for me??

Chris
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Old June 27th, 2013, 05:28 AM   #25
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

To the client, words to this effect:

"I also give you an MP4 version of every wedding DVD. Thats like an MP3 file for music but MP4 means its for video, and its high definition and optimised to play on Ipads smartphones and computers. Take a look on the Ipad here ....." (gets out Ipad 3 followed by smartphone - which are of course great for sharing excerpts with friends).

Once the clients are blown away by the crisp footage and ease of scrubbing then you may add:
"I don't think you'll find many videographers do that at all." (thats the unique selling point bit).

So you've introduced a product which the clients didn't even know they want and you've put some distance between what you offer and what they can get elsewhere.

Things like this also help to give the (right) impression that you are on the bleeding edge and will not be like their worst nightmare old school videographer.

A similar bridge was crossed a few years back when stills shooters started offering the edited high definition JPEGs. For a long time clients couldn't see the point and also for a long time photographers hung onto those files in the hope of continuing to make good money from album upsales and print sales. The alternative was to sell the files, but many clients did not understand it until shown. Then very juicy prices could be charged. Of course now many clients only want the files and nothing else and photographers not including the files within their packages would be commiting commercial suicide unless operating in a niche market (e.g. with heavy emphasis on album and wall print sales made in a hard sell viewing session after the wedding and with time limits and no online gallery; that technique is still common in portraiture as portraits simply don't sell for decent prices when the main route is online).

Yes the DVDs look good on big screens - I routinely use a 50" plasma in consultations, and as we know content trumps technical bragging rights but even so .....

Pete
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Old June 27th, 2013, 05:52 AM   #26
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

Henry Ford once said: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." and Steve Jobs once said "A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them." :)

I see a lot of brides that have Ipads and even more that have a Iphone, most of the email communication I get from my clients is with the message "sent from my Iphone" and I put a vimeo video online last night and the bride responded: We where allready in bed but quickly took the Ipad to see the video. The only thing is I don't own a Ipad or Iphone so then it's hard to sell :) but I agree that it's much better to show then tell.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 05:54 AM   #27
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

Peter, perhaps my viewpoint is slightly ambiguous, as I am not missing the point of an HD product, rather the fact that I just don't get asked for it. I always point out to clients that they can have an HD option if they wish, and although I would prefer Usb or SD card, they can have a BD if they would like it. However they all seem to want a dvd simply because everyone can view it, as dvd players are pretty well universal. I also offer to put their wedding onto their iPad or iPhone, but again it just doesn't seem to create any interest.

I think that given an HD tv and upscaling player, that as Chris says, most people really can't see the difference and are only really interested in the content. Most people with HD tv are also used to watching most tv programmes in standard res on the majority of broadcasts, as only a small percentage is broadcast in HD, so a good quality dvd meets their expectations. I really believe that most people would probably still be happy with VHS and the steady upgrade in quality is more down to manufacturers creating new markets than consumer demand.

Lets be honest here, we all know that 4k on a typical domestic tv is going to look pretty much the same as current HD, it just gives greater flexibility at the production end and of course better quality on very large home cinemas and commercial systems. It's taken over 10 years for HD to appear in most households, not because people wanted it, but because manufacturers stopped producing tubed tvs. Consumers like an HD tv because it is slimmer and more stylish, and with smart tvs it acts like, and interfaces with their smart phone. I really can't imagine any bride asking for her wedding in 4k in the foreseeable future and as HD is still only giving partial coverage it will be a long time before the public are forced into manufacturer and broadcaster driven 4k products. It will be the fashionable aspects of 4k products that will attract the consumer, not the picture quality and it will have to be something that is only available with the new product, like paper thin tvs or roll up screens :-)

Roger
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Old June 27th, 2013, 06:47 AM   #28
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

Hi Roger

Aha! I now see what Peter is talking about ... You are 100% correct of course and most brides WONT ask for a thumbdrive but simply cos they have no idea you can do such a thing. If you show them the option (whether they know about it or not) then that could give you the edge !! What they don't know about they won't ask about.

I always remember the chainsaw joke : A customer walked into the chainsaw shop and said "I want to return this chainsaw ..it's useless .. won't cut down any trees" The salesman took it from him and pulled the starting cord and the little engine roared into life " Holy C..P", yelled the customer, "What's that noise"

Peter, just for interest, do you mention the USBs/Ipad/IPhone option on your website or do you only introduce the option when you meet them ?

Chris
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Old June 27th, 2013, 07:46 AM   #29
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

Chris, its on my website and also in the PDF price lists that I attach to emails. So its there if people are inclined to pick up on it.

I use DVD boxes that can take two discs, one being the regular DVD and the other being the MP4. The disc surfaces have printed on them what they are optimised for etc and this information is also on the box's sleeve insert which I print on my Epson 4800. So they've got the info to refer to if they forget :- )

The relative uptake of high def in the UK is actually relatively high as measured by the satellite broadcaster Sky. I find its common among us Sky customers to have high def and to be quite snobbish about only watching high defs programs - of which there are tons. All the main terrestrial stations - BBC1 BBC2 ITV1/2/3/4 Channel 4 and Channel 5 all have high def channels and nearly all the content on them is high def - or Skys version of it anyway which is interlaced of course. All the Sky movie channels - of which there are many - are available in high def.

OK some broadcasts are fairly indistinguishable especially low budget reality and USA public service content but others can be massively better. A case in point is football where there is a world of difference between watching in standard and watching in high definition. No comparison and grooms are highly likely to be aware of that. The Sky receivers do upscale and you can of course opt to have your home cinema system do that instead if you're into all that.

The old stuff about loads of channels but nothing to watch, and no difference between standard and high def is just ..... well ... old stuff. And I and many others never ever watch programs at the time of transmission other than the news but prefer to watch at a time of my choice. The catchup services such as BBC iplayer have become hugely popular; not available in high def for saving to a local drive just yet - as far as I'm aware - but not far off and then even Youtube streaming make make your regular DVDs look pretty poor.

There seems to be a disconnect at present between couples expecting videographers to work in high def and couples receiving and accepting standard def products.

Pete
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Old June 27th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #30
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Re: iPhone/iPad authoring

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Originally Posted by Peter Riding View Post
The catchup services such as BBC iplayer have become hugely popular; not available in high def for saving to a local drive just yet - as far as I'm aware
Get iPlayer Automator does a great job on the Mac. I am sure that there are similar programs if you are afflicted with Windows:-) https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/39...ayer-automator
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