Producing/Selling School Concert Discs where Uncle Bob already Posts YT versions

[Al Gardner]

Oh Roger don't get all Huffy. That's the get tough approach you should take with your clients, not me.

There's no attack on your business or personal integrity. You're creating drama now.

Anyway sorry to offend you but I, like you, am only responding to the content of the discussion with my opinion about the comments being made.. Just as you did. I brought you up because we both proposed our different models. The comments I made about your model were your own words.

The OP wanted to know how it's done and you and I contributed in several comments how it's done in our own way. Yes I did have to point out some of your own statements which i think contribute to the particular model you use for this type of business.

But the bigger point is I actually do believe that you are a true professional, which caused me to wonder why you would think of your business in such a way. I guess I just don't understand it.

The first year we did a college graduation there were 6 bidders and it came down to the final 2. They called us in for a meeting to break the news to us that they liked our proposal but they could not give us the business at this time because we were to them, a "Mom and Pop" operation. They gave the job to the other guy in the room, the big AV company. The very next day that same guy calls us to do the job because their claim to fame is audio and sound reinforcement and not video.
They paid us $12,000 and the dvd sale which were a given. They got $25,000 and we did the work.

The next year we went back to the college with a huge appeal to support small business and after seeing the work we had done they wound up giving us the job. We got $22,00 plus a dvd to every graduate paid in advance.

So my points were that there's always somebody out there willing to sell you short. It doesn't have to be you.

I always find it odd the amount of derogatory references to the so called "Uncle Bob" when the business models are so similar.

Again no offense. Most of the comments are general.

[Steven Reid]

Originally Posted by Al Gardner

I always find it odd the amount of derogatory references to the so called "Uncle Bob" when the business models are so similar.

Not sure if you were referring to me, Al, but since I mentioned dear old Uncle Bob numerous times, perhaps I ought to have clarified in my context: it's the archetype for every cell-phone waving, iPad hoisting, and even tripod-mounted DSLR user who captures video of their child, maybe the choir/recital, too, and posts it to YouTube. Not paid; just a kind soul who's doing their best, despite quality that doesn't begin to approach professional.

Anyway, I don't mind your tone. Goodness, I'm accustomed to stronger rhetoric in my day job. You, Chris, and Roger forced me think of better approaches, which I what I asked for originally. Thanks.

-Steve

[Pete Bauer]

MOD NOTE: Yes, some of the retorts in this thread ride the razor's edge. Please be polite and respectful to each other on DV Info, if for no other reason than to save us Wranglers the bother and time of editing your posts.

For those unfamiliar, "...and Bob's your uncle" is a classic lighthearted British idiom that to some degree has even drifted into occasional use here in the States.

[Al Gardner]

Originally Posted by Steven Reid

Not sure if you were referring to me, Al, but since I mentioned dear old Uncle Bob numerous times, perhaps I ought to have clarified in my context: it's the archetype for every cell-phone waving, iPad hoisting, and even tripod-mounted DSLR user who captures video of their child, maybe the choir/recital, too, and posts it to YouTube. Not paid; just a kind soul who's doing their best, despite quality that doesn't begin to approach professional.

Anyway, I don't mind your tone. Goodness, I'm accustomed to stronger rhetoric in my day job. You, Chris, and Roger forced me think of better approaches, which I what I asked for originally. Thanks.

-Steve

Actually, Steve it wasn't about you. It was a generalization about the over generalization of the term .
And I'm glad you get it and don't mind the tone because there is no personal tone here, it's a discussion about the subject you brought up.

I'm not riding anybody, I honestly don't understand the business practices in this industry. Besides I don't look at my model as just being good for me, but for our whole industry. Getting justly compensated for our time, talent and equipment is a good thing.

Anyway,I'm glad at least the OP understands it.

[Christian Brown]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. And sometimes the "profitable" method isn't even the most profitable. Additionally, the methods and market dynamics at one level of the industry may have little relation to the methods and dynamics at a different level.

Personally, I don't mind Uncle Bob at the shows I work, and if I were in charge of a choir, I would absolutely make sure every show got archived somehow.

[Roger Gunkel]

Originally Posted by Christian Brown

There is more than one way to skin a cat. And sometimes the "profitable" method isn't even the most profitable. Additionally, the methods and market dynamics at one level of the industry may have little relation to the methods and dynamics at a different level.

Personally, I don't mind Uncle Bob at the shows I work, and if I were in charge of a choir, I would absolutely make sure every show got archived somehow.

Yes absolutely, I vary my sales strategy according to the market that I am addressing. In a bid for a contract with the US Airforce in the UK, I was up against a number of big AV companies bidding for a big budget project. My price was based on not just the project but who else was bidding. I ended up winning the contract, but the schools work that I do is the opposite end of the scale. In the example that Al mentioned, the contract was awarded to a value of $25000 and I would approach that totally differently to a local infants school wanting their Christmas nativity recorded.

There is no similarity between the two, as we are looking at an average of 50-100 dvds at the schools I typically film at and they would not consider risking paying out for something that could make them a loss. That's where my minimum number agreement works well. Also parents would not pay more for that sort of production than the £10-15 price range, neither would the schools entertain greater expense. So for very quick midweek projects, they are a nice extra income. The last week of School before Christmas, will typically see us filming 4 Christmas productions in a 10 mile radius from home usually one school in the afternoon and one in the evening.. They will all be filmed,edited and copied within a week with about a total of 300-350 dvds. Profit after expenses of about £1500 which I consider a reasonable return for 1 week of work.

On the other hand, for a large college production in Cambridge with big staging costs and prestige for the college, a bidding process would be the norm with a costing for the project as a whole and considerably more planning and post production involved.

Roger

[Steven Reid]

Originally Posted by Christian Brown

There is more than one way to skin a cat. And sometimes the "profitable" method isn't even the most profitable. Additionally, the methods and market dynamics at one level of the industry may have little relation to the methods and dynamics at a different level.

Personally, I don't mind Uncle Bob at the shows I work, and if I were in charge of a choir, I would absolutely make sure every show got archived somehow.

Thought you might weigh in. ;) Thanks.

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

Yes absolutely, I vary my sales strategy according to the market that I am addressing. In a bid for a contract with the US Airforce in the UK, I was up against a number of big AV companies bidding for a big budget project. My price was based on not just the project but who else was bidding. I ended up winning the contract, but the schools work that I do is the opposite end of the scale. In the example that Al mentioned, the contract was awarded to a value of $25000 and I would approach that totally differently to a local infants school wanting their Christmas nativity recorded.

There is no similarity between the two, as we are looking at an average of 50-100 dvds at the schools I typically film at and they would not consider risking paying out for something that could make them a loss. That's where my minimum number agreement works well. Also parents would not pay more for that sort of production than the £10-15 price range, neither would the schools entertain greater expense. So for very quick midweek projects, they are a nice extra income. The last week of School before Christmas, will typically see us filming 4 Christmas productions in a 10 mile radius from home usually one school in the afternoon and one in the evening.. They will all be filmed,edited and copied within a week with about a total of 300-350 dvds. Profit after expenses of about £1500 which I consider a reasonable return for 1 week of work.

On the other hand, for a large college production in Cambridge with big staging costs and prestige for the college, a bidding process would be the norm with a costing for the project as a whole and considerably more planning and post production involved.

Roger

As with your previous posts, Roger, that was nicely detailed. I believe my thinking for what I do (and want to do) has coelesced to the model that provides your "quick, midweek" extra income. I think schools at the high school level here would 'get' and implement the idea of a minimum order with nary a problem. In my head, that's an easier sell than would be the more lucrative models at, say, for a university choir or a corporate spot.

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Steven,
As Christian said 'There are many ways to skin a cat' and I find it quite rewarding to be able to encourage small schools to have their productions filmed professionally while creating a market that wasn't there before. My wife delivered 75 dvds to an infants school today and the holiday staff were really excited that parents had ordered so many. That corresponds to one for every child in the production and is a new record for the school. As they made a profit on every one over the first 25, they are going to use the money to pay for materials for the Christmas production that they have already booked us for.

This is the 6th year that we have filmed for this small school and they always pay us in cash which the parents have paid up front for the dvds. So a trip to the bank for my wife on the way home and another satisfied customer and some extra income. Not a fortune of course, but £500 profit for a quick and easy job is always welcome. We also find that once a school have used us, they continue to do so for every production as they get a good product, the parents love it and tthe school.makes a small profit on every production.

As the dvds all carry our business name, we often pick up wedding work as a result and it never hurts to have your name out there :-)

Roger

[Chris Harding]

Hi Roger

You don't have to make tens of thousands per job to make a decent living and there is certainly nothing wrong with your profit structure.

<BIG SIGH> I really wish our education system wasn't fraught with all our red tape and hassles simply to ensure you are not a wicked child molester ...the whole thing has gone completely over the top and makes accessing anything at schools almost impossible!

Chris

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Chris,

Working with children in UK schools requires that you have a CRB check, which has to be requested by the school and costs them money, which they don't like. However on looking more closely, it seems that it is only required when having direct contact with the children, or if unsupervised in the presence of children. When we film in schools, we insist that children are not allowed to be near us or any equipment and are never in contact with them, during filming, so a CRB check is not a requirement.

It's a pretty poor state of affairs though when everyone coming into contact with children is assumed to be a child molester unless proven otherwise!

Roger

[Chris Harding]

The basic assumption here is that you will take the photos/videos and then upload them to some degrading porn site after extensive photoshop work. It really is pathetic. Yeah we have to have a check regardless even if you are near children and each and every parent is required to provide a release for their child..a mean feat indeed when you are doing a dance concert with 100 kids!

Sadly I have given up that side of things although it is a lucrative market!

Chris

[Steven Reid]

Good heavens, I'll never work in the UK or AU! ;) And we are the most litigious country on the planet...