Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Five weddings left this season, and healthy orders for next year and am wondering weather to go full frame next year? I am looking at the 5d mark three x 2, or maybe someone can enlighten me with a top camcorder that does what a 5d would do. Anyone regret upgrading from the mark 2 to 3. Any difference? I could get three mark 2s for the 5d3. I did see someone talking about a sony nex camcorder with lens a while ago? Any good? My 60ds and hfg25s pana g6, all good but I'm wondering if the upgrade is worth it even though all is well. Just thinking to give me that top prestige image video quality? Steve

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Have you seen he specs on he Sony RX10 ?

No mirror, continuous autofocus in video mode
Backlit sensor
Ultrafast autofocus
Built in ND filter
Constant aperture 2.8 from wide to tele
Carl Zeiss lens
Image stabilization
Clickless aperture
Headphone and mic jack
Etc, etc, etc...

Just waiting for the reviews to confirm my decision to purchase two of them.
For the price of a 5D3 body you can get two of these babies.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Hey Steve, I haven't been keeping up with all the new cameras, especially the Sony ones. But I do think: (a) the difference between full frame and cropped is not worth factoring into your decision; the look is similar enough and the plusses of each balance the minuses; but (b) the lowlight improvement is worth factoring in, as well as recording time, slow motion capability, and dual card slots. I very much doubt that anyone who goes from Mk2 to Mk3 regrets it.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Cheers Arthur that looks decent, will look into that cam.. cheers mate

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Cheers Adrian, this is the thing, lights are becoming lower at venues and I struggled the other week trying to use a 50mm 1.4 at 1.4 with iso 3200 and struggled with he 60d. As I see it the mark iii 5d would kill that yes? The double slot recording is very handy like I have on the hfg25s and has saved my bacon once. Mmmm decisions.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Mk3 is brilliant in low light!

One more thought: I've been using Mk2s for years, but the 12 minute recording time still stuffs me around. There's just no warning when it stops rolling, and it's too easy to lose track of the time and become engrossed in the image.

The Mk3 not only records for 30min, but it displays a big message on the screen when it stops recording.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

You might want to check out Sony's new full frame, the a7r, much cheaper then the d5III and from what I read also has excellent low light performance but we still need to see more proof of that. That camera with the rx10 seems to be a very capable duo, it will be available next month so you have time to check out the first user videos and experiences that will appear.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Also to mention is that the RX10 uses EVERY pixel for video on that sensor whereas the 5D'd drop off an entire line of pixels on adjacent lines so you are only using 1/2 of all them pixels on that sensor in video mode.
The circuitry( processor) can't keep up with all that info if all the pixels are used.So it dumps half of them.
The RX10 has a 30 minute file size limitation. Wish they would take that off.
The ONLY reason I am not jumping for the full frame A7 is that there is no lens at a constant aperture of 2.8 that has that 24-200 equiv.that the RX10 has. The RX10 will be a gamechanger if the lowlight capability is anywhere near as the A7. Think about it, no lens to change and it has great macro throughout the zoom range. I was waiting a long time for a camera like this to come along.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Wow thanks guys a real eye opener, cheers Adrian, Noa, Arthur

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

And if it would exist that would be much more expensive then the rx10, but the sensor on the rx10 is also a lot smaller then the a7r, it seems that constant and fast f2.8 zooms are much cheaper to manufacture on a camera with a small sensor. Olympus is also bringing out a similar product but even with a smaller body: Olympus Announces the New Stylus 1 Digital Camera with Constant f/2.8 Zoom Lens | BH inDepth, I bet we will see more of these type of camera's.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Mmm the A7r full frame and reviews are good or favourable... Low light is the key for me though so I will keep my eyes peeled at these reviews when they come out. The mark iii 5d does look decent though. Noa, how is your gh3 in low light?

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Better then my 550d but don't expect miracles from it, I can shoot at 3200 iso with not much issue, 6400 iso I have also used more then once but then the noise shows but still less noticeable then 3200 iso on my 550d. I have moved away from Canon camera's and switched to a gh3 and a g6, the lumix lenses (I've got a 12-35mm f2.8 and 14mm f2.5 pancake) produce some very sharp and colorful images and I like it that the camerabody and lenses are so light and small. Must say the rx10 looks appealing to me too as I planned on getting a lumix 35-100mm f2.8 lens and the price is somewhat the same. If the rx10 screams "video" to me I"m not interested but if it's able to pull of some nice shallow dof shots combined with sharp images I might get it instead of the lumix lens, but I need to be absolutely sure it performs, especially in the low light area, I will be one of many looking out for the first videos to appear.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Does that Oly Stylus 1 have mic in and headphone out jacks ??
Very important for weddings.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Cheers Noa, I to was seriously thinking gh3 with my g6, awesome little thing. the 6ods are great but annoy me with the focus and I presume the gh3 like the g6 takes care of at least most focusing situations.. Will hold my decision till January then se what the sonys are like , cheers mate...

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

The Mark II's 12 minute limit is easily worked around, either by personal discipline, or, more likely, Magic Lantern. We haven't had a single problem with it since we started.

My personal experience is with Canon's T3i/600D, 70D, and Mark 2. We love the Mark 2 for the better low light performance over the crop factors (about 2 stops); PLUS less noise at 3200. Even 6400 is usable.

HOWEVER, I really like the 70D both for the crop factor at ceremonies (I like a nice, tight shot of B&G during vows), and the live auto focus for every other part of the day (when lighting cooperates).

And for us, as relative newbies, the price points work great to be able to have 3 or 4 cameras, since each (70D and Mark 2) run us about $1200 each.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Earlier this year I went from using Canon 60Ds to 2 5DMk3s and a 6D. The Mk3s and 6D blow away the 60D in low light and with the Mk3, you can say good bye to moire. If moire isn't an issue with you, you could consider the 6D. I have seen 6Ds below $1700 in the US.

With the 60D, I would shoot the reception with 1.4 primes. Now with the Mk3/6D I can shoot with zooms in the 2.8-4.0 range. I love shooting the first dance on the Mk3 with the 70-200 2.8 so much more than with the 60D on a 50 or 85mm 1.4.

Magic Lantern is awesome on the Mk3/6D.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Mark thanks I think that was the answer I was looking for. If I can use the 70-200 and the 24-70 in the 5d3 in low light then I would not have to mess around. Changing lens. Now I have to change for low light churches, change back again then change again later at night. All to much messing around. Cheers Brenda for your comments. I am siding towards the 5d3s, but will hold the decision as there are new cams coming out all the time. Cheers guys great information.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Bearing in mind that the 5DIII was introduced 18 months ago and the 7D a full 4 years ago, and with the slew of new small bodies and lenses being announced from other manufacturers, I'd be tempted to resist the new-toy-syndrome ..... if indeed it is a factor at all ..... until at least the spring and the start of the busy season. Just to have a clearer idea of what becomes available and at what street price together with reliable user reports.

I always regarded the 5DIII as an incremental rather than a revolutionary step beyond the 5DII, especially when you take into account the modifications possible to the II with Magic Lantern.

My priority next time I do a major equipment replacement will be very small and very light so it may be goodbye to Canon dSLRs. But as regards fullframe v. crop, I would be nervous about losing the wider catchment of the fullframe as this can be critical in many of our cramped overcrowded UK venues.

Pete

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Mmm cheers Pete... Some videos with the 5ds 3 look great, although I have seen some great footage with the gh3 pana, jeeez cannot make a decision. Yep a camcorder that gives me the dslr look with a great cheap price will do me haha.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Having gone from 5DII to GH3, I'd caution you about the GH3. You may be disappointed with it. The MFT chip being smaller yet than the crop just doesn't easily produce as nice a bokeh even at 2.8. In the main, unless I really work at it, I find the shots "meh". There's plenty of hyperbole about it from its fan boys and it looks good on paper. Also, there are some ergonomic issues that may or may not matter to you (documented in another thread). If you are looking at full frame to get an improvement over crop, I think the MFT will disappoint you. And as a Canon shooter, some of the GH3 ergonomics will frustrate you. But the flip out screen is great for shooting video. The smallness and lighter weight is great for travel but in and industry where the size of your camera matters, the GH3 looks like a joke next to someone with a Canon 7D or better. YMMV

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

It's easy to get into a war of camera brands. For the record, the GH3 handles very well and I wouldn't be without the swivel screen, though to be honest I prefer the GH2 image for daylight shots, only turning to the GH3 for indoors. The size difference is only a bone of contention in photographic circles; in Video anything smaller than a Professional Video Camera is going to look a joke to the uninitiated. The one big advantage for the GH3 is the 50p - it's very useful for confetti, handheld, slider, stabiliser shots and those moments when the bride and groom decide to speed walk down the aisle.

However I admit to make the GH3 sing for you, you need some great glass, specifically primes to really grab acceptable indoor footage and bokeh. The Mark III can achieve the same result shots with a good zoom lens, so the real answer is what system works best for you. Try out both cameras either via loan or in a shop - grab some footage and see which you feel the most comfortable using. There really isn't one good answer on what is the best camera, only what works best for you.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Cheers Les & Steve, still edging mark iii 5d, but everyone raving over this rx10 Sony but just found out you have to stick with the one zoom lens on the camera at 2.8 ok but for low light weddings I need that 1.2/1.4

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

@steve, you stated it as if it were a fact. Is there a study or two that shows that or is it just your opinion? I personally disagree.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

It's clearly an opinion, but one out of my own experience. Among video circles the GH3 may have its detractors, but given that the pocket cinema camera hasn't been widely viewed as a joke among videographers shows size isn't always an issue in our profession, only results. For those people who aren't familiar with video technology, they are equally surprised at my canon as they are my GH3. The idea that a DSLR of any size can film good video is still a new one to many. If they expect a bulky cinema camera and see a DSLR, be it a 7d or Gh3 the same remark on how much smaller cameras are these days is still made. I've yet to encounter any client or guest for all my Weddings who have objected to the size of the GH3. If any of my kit seen as a joke, its the furry cat on my microphone. Women just love playing with it.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

I have now honed by gear to the point where I am shooting with a 5D3 as my A cam but have added a Panasonic G6 for my locked off wide safety shot. My G6 is a PAL version but a model that has no recording limit. I have also added an Olympus OM-D E-M5 which has phenomenal in body 5-way stabilisation so is great for handheld shots & faking a crane, slider or Steadicam.

I have been very, very impressed with the two MFT cameras and am seriously considering selling the 5D3 & getting the new OM-D E-M1 to use as my A camera along with some decent MFT lenses. At the moment I just have the 14mm F/2.5 plus the 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 PZ kit lens but the combination of the Panasonic 12-35mm F/2.8 & 35-200mm F/2.8 would give me all the range I need with possibly the Panasonic 25mm F/1.4.

These MFT cameras are just so portable without being small & fiddly. I used to have a GH2 & couldn't get on with it as it was so teeny & plasticky but the OM-D is just lovely to use & the G6 is far better ergonomically. The 5D3 in comparison weighs a ton particularly when I have the 20-200mm F/2.8L on it. Both the G6 & OM-D are good & noise free up to ISO3200 & while the 5D3 is good for ISO6400 I can live with slightly worse but still phenomenal low light performance of the MFT cameras.

The OM-D is a great stills camera too. I know professional photographers who use these for weddings. This guy uses three slung round his neck each with a different prime lens Olympus OMD EM5 12mm 17mm 25mm 45mm 60mm Wedding Photography | ShutterLeaf Photography

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Having owned a 5D2 since 2008 & a 5D3 for the last 18 months I can categorically tell you that the 5D3 is a lot more than an incremental improvement over the 5D2. Just for starters 1-2 stops improvement in low light performance is great, 30 minute rather than 12 minutes recording time, better codec at lower bit rate so cards fill up more slowly, NO MOIRE or aliasing, the list goes on & on.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Don't want to start a "this one is better as the other one" thread here because everyone has it's favorites and I think Steve should make a decision about which factors matter most to him, that can be depending on lenses here already owns that might make it a better choice to stay on Canon side or based on features he needs to do his job, We all know that the first gen canons below the 5d have not been very good in terms of low light, moire and resolution, I have used a 550d for a few years and with all next models Canon has not made any significant improvement in image quality in neither the 550d, the 7d or the 6d as that last one is known for it's awful moire. The only real improvements where reserved for the 5dIII.

I have no doubt the 5dIII is a very capable camera but it comes at a price, you can get three gh3 bodies for that price, or a gh3 and 2 of it's best lumix lenses and when you say that it looks good on paper or that the shots look "meh", well, I can only say you don't know how to get the most from that camera.

There is a lot of footage available that prove otherwise, some of my favorites are these:

"https://vimeo.com/62274504"
"https://vimeo.com/72737956"
"https://vimeo.com/70663191"
"https://vimeo.com/77984732"

The first one is interesting as it was done by a 5dIII owner that prefers using the gh3 now for video, this is what he says about it: https://vimeo.com/62269059#comment_8982242

The gh3 is a very capable camera but you need to know how to use it, like any camera, and you need to work around it's shortcomings, like any other camera too. Based on my short experience and coming from a 550d I can only say I am very pleased with the quality of the image this camera outputs and it has been a worthwhile upgrade from my 550d, in terms of handling I did prefer the 550d but in terms of image quality the gh3 is a large step forward for me and that difference my clients see as well. I"m also sure a rx10 would match up very well with the gh3's sharpness where with the 5dIII you can expect to do quite some post sharpening to match both camera's, (I have seen the first test footage from the rx10 on vimeo where you can download a file straight off the card and the detail is insane, see here "https://vimeo.com/78199989") I don't own the 5dIII but have seen a few tests that show how soft the canon is standard, something to consider if you end up buying both camera's.

If low light performance and full frame is the most important thing on your list and you own a set of canon lenses suitable for full frame, the 5dIII is the most obvious choice but don't let the gh3 appearance fool you, it's a wolf in sheep's clothing's :)

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Ok, one more and then I"ll stop before people start calling me a fanboy again :) I have posted below video on this forum before and this was taken when I just got the gh3, I didn't read the manual and just took it with me on holiday, together with some vintage tamron lenses, I didn't concentrate on getting "bokeh", for that the lenses I had with me where too slow, I just wanted to capture the beauty and then I don't care about shallow dof. Eventhough with a f1.4 lens I could have achieved that, most shots where set to get a as wide as possible dof.

If I have to say so myself, the images and the color I was able to pull out of the camera looked pretty darn good to me as I just started to use the camera, there is also a very few g6 footage in there and you can notice because it is not as sharp as the gh3. Also important is that the Tamron lenses are softer and lack contrast compared to lumix lenses but I think they have more "character" that I find better for my personal work, for weddings I prefer the sharp, contrasty and colorful lumix lenses, they really make your image pop on a big screen.


Don't think weddingclients care if you hold a gh3 or a 7d in your hands, I have shot with a 7d before as well, not my camera but a loaner and the image quality was the same as my 550d, in that respect I can say I"d take a smaller cheaper and better performing camera over a larger more expensive worse performing camera anyday, and it doesn't have to be a "panasonic", i"m brand agnostic, give me a Sony tomorrow equally priced as the gh3 that performs better and I"m off shooting with a Sony.

I am curious though, because you seem to be so disappointed about the performance of the gh3, is there some footage you shot that I can see which would make me understand why you think it's so bad?

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Noa has mentioned several times that the G6 is not as sharp as the GH3 but he seems to be the only one who finds this. I own a G6 and have used a GH3 & there is no way that I would ever describe the G6 as soft. The image looks very very similar to the GH3.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

That was when I shot in 50p, with my tamron lenses I could pick out which shot was done with the g6, I have seen a user reporting that the g6 was softer at 50p compared to 25p but I have not been able to test it yet, might do that soon.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

All the the fanboys seem to reckon that there is nothing to choose between the G6 & GH3 purely on video image quality.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

I will try to do a comparison asap, I find it important enough for myself to see if that is the case, I have used both cameras at the last few weddings with lumix lenses and it looked fine to me, only in the video shot with my tamrons I was able to pick out the shots from the g6 based on the sharpness difference.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

@steve b. ... looks like your thread's been hijacked. yes, you have to plow through all the raving and user reviews to find critical reviews of this stuff. Seems to me all these cameras are capable of taking decent images but looking at the whole package of glass and ergonomics helps you see the breadth of situations the camera can deliver in and how much effort you have to put into getting it. Personally, I found that with a SmallHD DP4 on the 5DM2, getting a good in focus, well exposed shot with great bokeh was like falling off a log. But all that gear, cabling and batteries was a pain for travel. Dropping down to the smaller chip made it easier to travel and setup but traded off ease/speed in getting a great infocus, well exposed shot with nice bokeh. For me it's a b-cam. YMMV ... cheers.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Steve have you considered options like the Sony Nex VG30 or VG900? The first is aps-c and the second full frame. The thing is they are both "video" cameras as far as ergonomics go. They can use adaptors so you can use many legacy lenses and have "luxuries" like focus peaking. There seems to be very little feedback on them which makes it hard to judge their suitability but it's good to know all the options available.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

I have two sony nexcams - the vg20 and ea50 and love them both. Ergonomically video cameras but producing lush dslr type imagery thanks to the large sensors - i use them both with my canon ef lenses as well as the kit lenses they came with. I use a metabones lens adapter - not cheap but gives me an extra stop of light - great for those dim receptions.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

I"ll link directly to a new post I created so this topic doesn't get sidetracked, in short, my test shows the g6 is softer in 50p compared to 25p and that the gh3 is sharper then the g6. Maybe you can confirm as you have the same camera? But pls use the thread I linked to.

see here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...n-25p-50p.html

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Thanks for all your input guys, busy doing two weddings so sorry for late replies. I think the thing with me is again yesterday I was struggling in low light this time of year. The 60ds with the sigma 30mm 1.4 and 50mm 1.4 where ok but I was still working at over 1600 iso and I like footage at no more than 640 iso. As I see it the 5D mark iii would be great in low light I believe at 3200 iso with a 2.8 lens on. As we all know weddings are stressful and hard and I want to make everything easier. Changing lens on the fly and running and gunning is easier with two cams, one on my monopod and one around my neck to change quickly but with changing lens as well its sometimes a nightmare. Also my other lens have the IS on them so that would be better than the primes. That VG900 and EA50 sound interesting. Peter would you swap the vg900 for the mark iii or is it as good, what about focus on the vg900? Is it auto focus like a camcorder but gives the dslr look? Low light good? steve

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Hi Steve

I feel for you! I'm up to my eyeballs in weddings too as November is our real busy month!

The EA-50 with the APSC sensor does a pretty good job and yes, it focusses just like a video camera plus you have the added advantage of the camera having touch focus on the LCD screen so wedding especially with one static camera is a cinch as you can simply touch the brides dress and the cam will lock onto that distance and stay there! The EA-50 focus can sometimes be a tiny bit slow when I use my 2nd camera on my shoulder doing zoomed cutaways at a crowded wedding but on average it's pretty darn good and a great asset in the chaos of a wedding ceremony. Of course tracking the bride coming down the aisle is absolutely perfect and accurate.

I would assume that the 900 would have much the same focus system so that should work well too.

Chris

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Nobody has mentioned the 6D. It is cheaper than the mark ii whilst being superior in terms of high ISO. Perhaps its slightly worse with moire, but its not a huge problem IMO.

Also, crops are handy to have around you. You can use the crop to your benefit by gaining extra reach.

I think we may be in danger of getting carried away with the idea of constant 2.8 zooms. Some of you will know that I have first hand experience of this lately having owned a Panasonic Lumix FZ200 2.8 24-600mm for a grand total of 48 hours.

Instead I bought a Sigma 17-70mm 2.8-4 and put it on my spare 550D giving me a decent reach of 26-105mm. Which I think fits my needs adequately.

I've also seen some of the RX10 clips by Gordon Laing and tbh, If you don't need to shoot all the way at 200mm, I'd say you would get better quality footage on the combo I've mentioned above.

What is the equivalent I wonder - would 2.8 on the RX10's sensor, be comparable to 3.5 on an APS-C?

I'm just guessing.

Re: Change to full frame better or same as crop
 

Cheers Chris & Clive, How big is the ea50 Chris? I don't really like a big cam on my shoulder as I am now used to the 60ds and hfg25 on my monopods? Seems to be the way for me as most of my shots are less than 6 seconds, apart from the ceremony speeches and a lot of close ups and various quick angles. Clive the 6d is out for me as the moire I have heard is horrendous.