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Old June 13th, 2014, 01:49 PM   #16
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

Nice one Robert excellent..
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Old June 14th, 2014, 01:07 PM   #17
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

And factor in re-edits. Are you going down the route of "We will change it again and again until you are happy"? If so then the time it takes to make changes, render, upload/post out disks.

Sounds like a great thing, as thats how you want to be treated. Until you get your first bride which ends up being a full year of back and forth tweaks that you realise you need some sort of barrier to stop the "Can you make the shot of my shoes 2 seconds longer" type brides. :)
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Old June 15th, 2014, 02:08 AM   #18
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

Well said Danny!

All you have to do is go into the Members Only Forum and read the trials and tribulations that Tariq has gone thru offering to make the bride 100% happy no matter what. It only took me ONE wedding and a bride that spent 3 days (full days too) at the edit desk to make me realise I had committed the ultimate sin of giving her a "proof" DVD and telling her to let me know what she didn't like. That was my first and my last!!

Chris
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:16 AM   #19
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

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Originally Posted by Robert Benda View Post
I keep shooting weddings precisely for those random moments, Craig, like you caught with your winking groomsman. My wife and I have a long way to go before we're all the way there... I consider us really good Uncle Bobs or below average professionals.

Our success in our first year was a combination: opportunities (clients) because we piggy backed my DJ clients. The videos came out OK by sheer amount of footage (plenty to edit with) and a great attitude (we'll try anything! Seriously. I once slept in my car at the groom's farmhouse so I could film the sunrise over the house, because that's where the ceremony was going to be).

We got here because I am already a very successful wedding MC/DJ. My wife, who likes photography, wanted to do a photo booth, but we found our market was already saturated. About the same time, a DJ client couldn't find a videographer, and all my names I referred were retired, so we volunteered to do it with out JVC Handycams for $150 (!?) and it was just as amateur as you'd think. After 2 more DJ clients asked for help, we jumped in and are trying to teach ourselves to do it right.

I don't know what we would do different. I suppose after another year or two, we'll have enough experience to look back and see our mistakes more clearly. We're only 3 years in. So far, maybe skipping experimenting with the 4 minute trailers... and buying the right gear at the start ($40 tripods are the worst)

Our goal is to average 30 wedding DJ clients, and 12+ video clients per year (last year was 32/17 and this year is 28/8 so far). Sometimes a couple books both. We must be doing something right so far. The sister of the groom from last October just booked us for the same DJ+Video package for next year (though our prices have gone up!).
Good work! Thanks for sharing and all the best with your future!!!

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Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
I love this sort of post as it takes me back to when I gave up my day job in IT 4 years ago to go at this full time. I enjoyed sleeping in till 10am and getting up when I like. I now have a 2 year old so my day starts WAY earlier now :)

How was your first year in business?
Fine, we had about 15 weddings booked for the year and knew from the past couple of years that more would come in. Also, Julie was still working full time. We had a choice. Keep going at it part time with no time to grow the business or jack in the day job and go full time and devote more time to growing the business.
I really like your gutsy move away from a career job into a business... it's funny as I never knew that you posted here, yet I have been to your website at least ten times now. You have a brilliant search-optimised website, well done for that!!! You're also a talented company with a clear visual for how you want your company to be perceived, straight down to the name - which I love - but have no idea what it has to do with weddings?! I have a degree in Computer Science, so I'm hoping that I can really get to grips with the website side of the business, as well as search optimisation, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
What were the reasons for your successes/failures in your first year?
Sucess was giving up the day job. As I said, I had more time to market, produce better edits. Failures were plowing money into things like the national wedding show. It works if your sub 1k in prices or offering 30%+ discounts. Other failures were down to simple lack of knowledge, not just as an artists but as a business person. Remember, you dont just have to be cinematographer, sound engineer, director and producer. You also have to be accountant, secratary, MD, CEO and CFO all in one.
I don't even know what all of these titles mean?! :)

I have never heard anything good about wedding shows... I also don't think giving discounts is a great idea... so I am hoping for my work and referrals to do the talking... but it's all about investing into the business... which I'm doing so at an alarming rate really... still need an extra year to work on the gear side of things too, though. Love that you're shooting C100s... my dream. I think I'm more likely to be shooting with a fleet of GH4s though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
What did you do differently in your second year?
Doubled our prices so we could actually afford to live off of what we did. Doubled them again the 3rd year and now have a 20% increase each year.

How does this compare to where you are now?
Oh boy. Started out filming on an eBay bought VX2100, now we rock a fleet of C100's for Minty and this year launched another studio to handle the overflow of work. In a few weeks we will be recruiting more people to allow A Hint of Mint to double its capacity again. SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION: If anyone is wanting to shoot for us Freelance then get in touch :)
Are you looking to shoot nationally? Are there any ways of making a good living by being a freelance shooter? Not that I'm particularly interested in that, but I am offering my services for free this summer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
What keeps you shooting weddings every season?
Do something different each time and I love being in business.

What light bulb moments have you had?
Training. Go on some serious training and spend a week having lightbulb moments.
What training courses would you recommend? I am always on CreativeLive, but there are only two classes on there related to wedding cinematography... the rest of the time, I'm trying to learn from professional photographers.

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Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
Which light bulb moment was the most important for you?
Training. Seriously, what makes us think we can do this without any? And I dont just mean how to run a business. Next year were off to WPPI, we have hired a business guru to help on the business side.

How would you start up a business now, given your experiences?
Hahah, as weve just launched A Hint of Mint we've done just that. Know your cost price and don't compete on price. Advertise in the right places.
Are you willing to share where the right places are to advertise? I am with you on not competing on price!!! :)

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Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
What advice would you give to me?
Dont compete on price. The way you win that war is to be cheaper than the other guy, he will try and beat you by being one step cheaper and so on. The way to be the ultimate winner is to give it away.
Hmmm are you saying to be the cheapest in your area? Or to just accept that some people will be the winners by giving it away, but that you still expect your clients to book you based on the quality of your services?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
Save up some money before you give up your job. Its summer now so you will be filming weddings like no ones business but come winter you could have zero!!! ZERO work and just be editing. Its seasonal so be prepared.
Thanks, I'm not looking to leave my career any time soon, I know that I must save up, but then I also know that I don't have enough equipment yet. So I'm hoping that by Christmas / March I should have all of the equipment and then I can save up from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
Go on some training, some serious, costs some god damn money training. Not just how to shoot and edit but how to run a business.
Again, recommendations in these areas would be amazing, if you could help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
Work out your cost price. When we ran our training event we asked everyone their cost price.. not a single person in the room knew, they all based their price on the guy sitting next to them and when they realised they didnt know they all realised they were in a spot of bother. How can you possibly know what to charge if you dont know what it costs? Factor in your Vimeo subscription, studio management software, camera replacement, camera repairs, electricty to charge and run your computer, mobile phone, petrol, cost of demo disks.
And still make a living?! Insane. I know though, I can see how the business is crazy expensive... and I can also see that there is some real money to be earned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
No1 tip!!! Get studio management software like Tave, https://www.tave.com/join/mintyslippers (30 day free trial).
Honestly, why have a google mail and calendar, a dozen spreadsheets and documents when this thing can do it all for you. Would you believe me if I told you every success we've had, every decision we make to grow and the whole reason we have a second crew was down to Tave which costs us just 15 a month?
It sends out invoices automatically, people pay, money appears! Does our booking, reporting, logs every email we send so we can manage disputes, syncs with my iphone calendar so I can look at a glance, tells me my top booking sources, my top reasons for people not booking.

Sounds like I'm on a major sales pitch for Tave doesnt it. Well people still choose to ignore us to save themselves 15 and spend days doing admin or not growing because they are busy wasting time. Tave my friend, GET TAVE!
I am going Tave! Thanks for this recommendation!!! :D And all the best with your business... I can see that you seem to be one of the leaders in weddings in the UK - or at least that's the perception that you get from viewing your website. Thank you for sharing your journey!!! :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
We are off to pickup the keys to our new office today. Good times.
How's that new office?! Congratulations!

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Kilroy View Post
The advice I would offer to anyone starting or even established is at some point think about an exit strategy. I know it may seem unnecessary when starting out but believe me there will come a point when most people will want or need to get out of the business. I'd suggest building a sustainable stand alone business or brand that is capable of continuing with or without the originator, as it appears you are doing. That way when you want to devote time to other interests or move on to a different project or just lay back and spend your well earned fortune, there will be something tangible to 'cash in'. As a one-man-band once you stop your business stops and there's not much future income from reproducing copies of old weddings videos or school plays.
Thank you George - great advice. I already have a pension, and it's a really good one. It's hard to give it up, so I'm going to look at ways in which to carry it on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive McLaughlin View Post
Love those 'nailed it!' moments.

Its a little frightening how much adrenalin there can be on a days wedding shoot, and most people have no idea. I keep it all inside my head though.

'Booya!', 'Come on!', 'Beaut!' , and even times of giving yourself a talking too like 'Get it together', or 'Man up' or 'Get the finger out!'.

And then theres the feeling of going home knowing you truly 'worked', not in any way a you've worked before for any employer.

And then theres the appreciation, and the remarks. Something you will never get as an employee in most companies.

Job satisfaction, being a self-made man, doing something worth while. This is why I'm making the jump to full time next year. Its a better life.
Thank you for sharing this! All the best with making the jump!!!
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:18 AM   #20
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

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Originally Posted by Peter Rush View Post
CLIVE YOU NAILED IT!

Honestly you summed up why I jumped from the rat race about 4 years ago - the day itself can be hard beyond belief (I have definitely told myself to 'Get it together! on more than one occasion) especially when it seems all is going wrong (I've had a few this year - only a few weeks ago a pouring down wedding with a church ceremony at 3 going through to first dance at a very early 7pm with a stop off in a park inbetween and setup for video guest messages, bearing in mind I'm a solo shooter - I actually said to myself 'WHY AM I DOING THIS?) But when you're editing it all together and you see all the good stuff it's soooo worth it - and then the emails/cards/phone calls from happy clients proving that you've made a treasured recording of someone's special day- makes it all worth it :)

My only regret is not doing it years earlier!

Pete
:) I am hoping that I don't have that regret in a couple of years time, but at the same time, it's allowing me to build up my kit to deliver a more professional service. Thanks for sharing Pete!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Calabig View Post
I think the most important thing is to realize that the experience you provide is more important than the footage you shoot. This means being a great person to be around when you meet your clients, during the wedding day, and communicating with the after.

I see far too many people trying to sell their video rather than sell their themselves (not in that way :). Your services do not matter, You matter. This means that the client should hire you for the way you shoot and the experience you bring. Don't get caught up trying to sell the sliders, Glidecam, multi cams, etc. Be interested in your couple

Don't get angry with vendors, no matter if they wrong you in the worst way. This also means don't rely on them or their word. Good vendor relationships are a great, free way to get more people to know about you and trust your services.
Wise words. Thanks Edward. From my experience working on my first wedding, I definitely found the help of everyone involved appealing. I tried to do my best for them, and hoped that they would do the same in return. I guess with all of these words of advice, it's a great thing to keep a good relationship with all of the venues, in the same way as it is with your clients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bleasdale View Post
Don't upset the clergy, don't upset the people who help the clergy, don't upset the venue boss, don't upset the DJ, don't upset the toastmaster, don't upset the bride, be on time, do the simple things right, have the right equipment and double the equipment, be ready for things that might or might not happen, be ready for the unexpected because the video guy is the last to know! Yes? The last to know!! Be ready for the next stage in the day, think one step ahead of everyone...
Make sure you have a contract or else, make sure you don't stand on the brides dress or else, make sure you have the dance time in the contract because they will keep you there till whenever they want to dance or the DJ says never mind the video guy you have the dance when you want, even though you will have been with the bride since 9am.
After getting all those things right weak in week out then you can say you are top dog and professional. Welcome to the mad world of filming weddings. Good luck. in our Northern area...
Thanks Steve, great advice... even if it's a making me feel a little weary! :) I am sure that you love the job loads Steve, as you're always very passionate about these upsets and that's just a testament to how much you care. Keep up the good work! Thanks for sharing :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post
Steve, sounds like you're talking right out of my experience book ^^ :)

I would add something else. Make sure you have real passion for what you do, not just OCD right now because you want a change from what you're currently doing and this looks like a lot of fun. Lots of people start & they absolutely love the first few weddings, then after the initial euphoria they realise it's not quite how they thought it would be.

It's getting both easier (improved equipment) and harder (higher expectations) to do great films with true innovations that make people go wow!

Meanwhile, as the equipment becomes cheaper and makes it easier for amateurs to get reasonable results more and more people are crowding in to the market. This inevitably means prices drop as supply outstrips demand.

As Danny said, make sure you understand your costs, not just the costs on the day, but the hidden costs like insurance, accountants, music licenses, equipment to make your DVDs, how you're going to make the DVDs and cases and how much time this really takes. This is all part of the job, so it's not something you should be figuring in as free time. Will the vehicle you drive be determined by the equipment you need to carry and is this now costing you more than it otherwise could/would? That's a hidden cost most people completely ignore.
Thanks Dave, all of these expenses really do add up! Are we even making 30K a year in the UK? It seems as though you would need to shoot 40 weddings just to make an average living.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post
You're all set with new gear now, but how much will you need to allocate from each and every job you do towards replacing that equipment in 2,3 or 4 years time. Talk of new gear is constant, but try not to get caught up in each and every new craze.

As a teacher, you're probably all set here, but for others looking on, make sure you're a people person and are happy chatting & interacting with the B+G and guests. If not, you may need to adjust your shooting style so you're more of a fly on the wall. In this case, will you be happy being totally ignored while the photographer is getting all the love & praise on the day? Perhaps the photographer is being fed by the couple and you get nothing, no drinks, no food, no thank you, nothing. It happens.

I don't want to dampen anyone's spirits. I want every one to be successful at what ever they choose to do. But in order to do that, you need to be sure this is your true vocation. If not it can easily be an expensive hobby that ultimately goes nowhere.
Brilliant advice Dave, and this is why I'm shooting this summer - to give myself four weeks as a 'professional' to see what it's like to wake up every morning and edit people's weddings who you do not know... it's an interesting one, but ultimately, it's one that I've found incredibly exciting and enjoyable. I am hoping that this is a venture that I'll wish to stick at it... but only time will tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Benda View Post
I just changed our contract so that if there is an issue, but they keep their wedding videos, they can't get a 100% refund - basically I make them pay for music licensing (per song, for us) and the custom DVD cases (around $200 in cost)

For future expenses, well, I pay myself a paycheck, and the business keeps the rest. Some of that goes into it's savings account for when its time to replace gear.

And when buying new gear.... don't! Wait and wait a while to make sure its something you can really use. If, after a couple of weeks, you still want it, try and sell your partner (or a friend in the business) on it's value. If you can't sell them, it's probably a poor idea.

And close ups of, not just details of objects, but of people. I love being able to cut to a bride's eyes, the B&G holding hands, or some small detail during a real moment. Since my wife and I shoot together, we usually agree on responsibility, so its my job to get the safe shot, and she knows she can take a chance on something that often ends up being really nice. Last week, during the B&G first look, they start a kiss, and my wife panned down to them holding hands. It was a great shot and perfect for a transition.
Amazing that you have a partner to shoot with... I love details too... I'm really intrigued by the use of a macro lens for small details and making that work... I know that as a videographer, time is a pressing issue; but to shoot some amazing shots of the rings and having someone take the ring for example, out of the frame, all adds to the end product / film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
And factor in re-edits. Are you going down the route of "We will change it again and again until you are happy"? If so then the time it takes to make changes, render, upload/post out disks.

Sounds like a great thing, as thats how you want to be treated. Until you get your first bride which ends up being a full year of back and forth tweaks that you realise you need some sort of barrier to stop the "Can you make the shot of my shoes 2 seconds longer" type brides. :)
Oh dear, I think re-edits would have to be a one time only thing, for minor changes... most videos, you obsess to the finest detail... to ensure the best possible quality. I don't want to mess up the entire flow of the video by making a shot two seconds longer... do you all feel this way too?

Thank you to everyone for your replies so far!!! :)
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:30 AM   #21
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

Yesterday's wedding was a great example of why we do this job. I already put together a rough highlight video from the dance before I go film another wedding today.

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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:40 AM   #22
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

Thanks for sharing Robert, looks like an amazing day! Love the guy's vows at the beginning too.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:53 AM   #23
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

To Craig:

Quote:
straight down to the name - which I love - but have no idea what it has to do with weddings?!
Bingo! That was part of the reason why we selected the name. It could be anything we wanted it to be and steered clear of the clique wedding video name or the photographer approach of using our names. Also, its what happens when you name your bussiness while drunk and wearing green slippers :)

Quote:
Are you looking to shoot nationally? Are there any ways of making a good living by being a freelance shooter? Not that I'm particularly interested in that, but I am offering my services for free this summer.
We already cover nationally and internationally. We need shooters so we can take on more work instead of turning it down. Can you make a living? First, figure out the true cost of doing a wedding. What do you think it costs you to get out of bed and put your shirt on ready for the shoot? Our cost prices need updating but our last number was in the 900 mark. Thats just the cost of gear (depreciated over 3 years), insurance, charging gear etc. Thats not including our time. Now, as a freelance shooter you dont have any of that. You turn up, shoot with our gear which we maintain and replace every 3 years and pay you money at the end. You dont have to spend a bean on marketing, nothing on gear, dont have to worry about spending another 100 when your lav mic cable breaks... again.

Quote:
What training courses would you recommend? I am always on CreativeLive, but there are only two classes on there related to wedding cinematography... the rest of the time, I'm trying to learn from professional photographers.
Nothing currently available in the UK. CreativeLive gives you little bits. You really need a multi day workshop which can give you everything from the creative to the branding and business. You need the complete picture. Were off to WPPI next year.

Quote:
Are you willing to share where the right places are to advertise? I am with you on not competing on price!!! :)
I have a presentation we did for the IOV somewhere which lists all the places to advertise based on your price point. ill dig it out.

Quote:
Hmmm are you saying to be the cheapest in your area? Or to just accept that some people will be the winners by giving it away, but that you still expect your clients to book you based on the quality of your services?
dont be the cheapest. People will always look for a bargain and book the cheapest they can find. Do you want those clients? Nope. There are also people who book based on the work.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #24
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Re: The Switch: From Amateur to Professional

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Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
Bingo! That was part of the reason why we selected the name. It could be anything we wanted it to be and steered clear of the clique wedding video name or the photographer approach of using our names. Also, its what happens when you name your bussiness while drunk and wearing green slippers :)
Love the name and you definitely set yourself apart from the crowd :) It's a bold move too - funny that slippers are a part of an attire that would never make it to a wedding too! :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
We already cover nationally and internationally. We need shooters so we can take on more work instead of turning it down. Can you make a living? First, figure out the true cost of doing a wedding. What do you think it costs you to get out of bed and put your shirt on ready for the shoot? Our cost prices need updating but our last number was in the 900 mark. Thats just the cost of gear (depreciated over 3 years), insurance, charging gear etc. Thats not including our time. Now, as a freelance shooter you dont have any of that. You turn up, shoot with our gear which we maintain and replace every 3 years and pay you money at the end. You dont have to spend a bean on marketing, nothing on gear, dont have to worry about spending another 100 when your lav mic cable breaks... again.
How will you maintain your level of work through other shooters though? By training your staff to be as good as yourselves? Nice... I can definitely see the advantages of that... to me, I want to be like you and not somebody's shooter... I guess that's the problem with weddings though - everybody has the idea to shoot weddings for a business of their own. I can definitely understand the frustration with the lav mics too!!! :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
Nothing currently available in the UK. CreativeLive gives you little bits. You really need a multi day workshop which can give you everything from the creative to the branding and business. You need the complete picture. Were off to WPPI next year.
Super... I checked the dates of my holidays, and unfortunately, I'm working during WPPI - pain. I will definitely go there one day though. Hope you find it to be an amazing experience that's worthwhile :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
I have a presentation we did for the IOV somewhere which lists all the places to advertise based on your price point. ill dig it out.
That would be amazing Danny, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny O'Neill View Post
dont be the cheapest. People will always look for a bargain and book the cheapest they can find. Do you want those clients? Nope. There are also people who book based on the work.
Haha true... I was speaking to a pair of photographers who had a call that week, which went something like this...

"Hi, the wedding vendor has recommended you to photograph our wedding. I'm not that interested in photographs, but the girlfriend says we have to have them."

At this point, the husband is rummaging for their schedule, whilst his wife is shaking her head to him, telling him to stop.

At this point, she told them how much they charged and he sounded shocked: "I don't want to spend anywhere near that much money!"

Seriously, I could not and would not want clients like that either. The photographers that I've been speaking to pitch in the region of 1300-2000 per wedding - but that's with wedding albums etc. included. They say that this level of pricing brings them young professionals, who are interested in their photography. They're told that they could inflate their prices even more by clients, but they're happy with the clientele that they bring at that pricing and are making a good living from it.

I can only assume that it's similar pricing with video that will allow you to make a good living... the costs of equipment - especially if you're shooting with C100s - is a great amount.

I guess my ultimate question would be:

"For a one man team, offering to shoot weddings at around 1300-1500, can you make a sustainable business that brings in around 30,000 profits? If so, how many weddings are you shooting in a year?"

My guess now is that it is sustainable, but that you probably won't make in the region of 30,000 in profits. More like 20,000 if you do 40 weddings.

===

Would anyone recommend the following? https://www.videouniversity.com/shop...rketing-guide/
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