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Old February 4th, 2015, 06:56 AM   #61
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

Hi Noa

There seems to be some confusion here? Roger shoots video and Claire shoots stills. We do the same thing except during the stills photoshoot ,after I have finished my stedicam shoot I grab the second stills camera and help out a bit so I act as the assistant photog ... That's the only time we both do stills as I see it being pointless me sitting on my butt while she takes the stills.

With our weddings there is no time ever where either one of us is trying to shoot stills and video at the same time. I have a dedicated photographer and I'm a dedicated videographer ..I simply help out during the photoshoot and take some stills that might be used in her final batch or might not

That is a huge difference compared to a solo guy trying to do both

Chris
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Old February 4th, 2015, 08:26 AM   #62
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

I was under the impression we where talking about one person doing video and photo simultaneously, was that not the case Roger? When you work as a man/wife team that's completely different, in that case you have one person dedicated to each job.
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Old February 4th, 2015, 11:45 AM   #63
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

There is lots of confusion going on here.

Noa, you have turned upside down my point on the dual package and the abilities of some photographers. There are photographers that use a lot of very sophisticated equipment above the level of most wedding photographers that I have worked with over the years. That may include assistants with various reflectors and lighting, indoor setups with studio facilities, collections of cameras and lenses beyond the norm, various assistants etc. They would also use props and poses beyond those used at most weddings. I wouldn't attempt to compete with that type of photography, neither would I want to do that sort of photography. It is what I would call top end and top price. Most photographers that I do and have worked with, would have no idea about shooting video so wouldn't be able to match my video whether they did it with or without photography! The same applies with top end video with multi operators, cranes, jibs, rails etc, not my thing I am afraid and not what I want to do or compete with. If I was shooting video using that type of setup, I wouldn't have time to do the stills, but the very quick and mobile way that I work and the setup of my equipment enables me to do both efficiently. Perhaps someone can suggest a typical wedding scenario that I would struggle to cover properly.

I produce to a level that I would expect to see from typical UK mid priced ordinary video and photography producers- competent video and photographic coverage. No matter how many ways you try to justify that I cannot possibly match the typical offerings of videographers and photographers, it is my clients that are the judge of what I offer and they are able to compare and make their own choice.

I can't give you any links to poor video and photos, and wouldn't if I could as it would not be ethical, but I see both at some wedding shows. I am not interested in spending my time looking at other people's sites, although I did see one a couple of months ago that showed horrendous video as a demo. I don't show any video on my site, I only show directly to clients at shows and on personal visits, showing complete videos rather than put together demos.

Chris I shoot dual packages both solo and with Claire, she also does the same. When we work together sometimes we swap video and photos, sometimes we concentrate on one and sometimes, Claire shoots video and stills at the bride's preps, while I am shooting both with the guys. It depends on the day and the circumstances, but if we only have one wedding booked, we both attend.

Roger
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Old February 4th, 2015, 12:07 PM   #64
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

What is happening here is that most that think it is impossible to do both well, are looking at how they normally work with video, then imagining trying to also do what the photographer does. There is also a lot of comparison with top end videographers and photographers, which is not what I am talking about.

Working solo or with Claire, we are in total control of what we are doing and how we fit into the day. There is no fitting around the photographer, no competing for space and no trying to get a decent shot while he is working with his group or romantic shots. We can set up romantic and group shots when we are ready and take whatever time is necessary within the overall wedding schedule to fit in all the casual and formal shots, scene setting etc. Even during the groups, while people are getting in position, I am busy shooting what is going on around while I am waiting. The pace of the day within the fixed times of ceremony, meal, speeches etc is totally controlled by us.

When the couple exit the ceremony when a separate photographer is present, he will normally move quickly into getting group shots, making it a rush to pack up equipment without missing video footage. With the joint package, that is just one of the typical problems that is removed along with others too numerous to list. There is a lot to do for sure, but for me, I find it far less stressful than working with a photographer.

Roger

Last edited by Roger Gunkel; February 4th, 2015 at 12:08 PM. Reason: typos
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Old February 4th, 2015, 01:08 PM   #65
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

I always work solo doing video only but I know my work is also a compromise in certain situations, I am able to deliver a decent product but I am very much aware I would be able to deliver a better product if I would have a dedicated second shooter with equal experience. If I would have to do video and photo combined by myself that would be a even bigger compromise in both areas, you can find a good balance but it would never be as good as having more dedicated persons, that's all I"m trying to say. I never will say I can do an equally good job as a team with 2 or 3 experienced people by myself, I just can't.
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Old February 4th, 2015, 01:12 PM   #66
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

Roger, I don't doubt you do both very well, but I think you're buttering your arguments a little too much. I do both a Wedding Video and Marryoke as a sole operator and have an inkling of the issues involved in balancing 2 things. Now I'm very proud of those days where I've pulled off both, but there are some days better than others. It really falls down to the things in the day that even the Photographer can't control. A Bride being late to the church, sometimes very late, stubborn caterers refusing to delay meals to accommodate, transport problems like the coach taking the guests from the Church to the Reception, dinner taking longer to serve, over-long Speeches, key guests disappearing when it's their turn to be photographed. Well perhaps the last one doesn't affect me, unless they've disappeared because they're being filmed for my Marryoke, in which case I make a quick exit to the loo.

But these issues I speak of, are hardly rare, or at least not in my case, maybe your experiences are different. Weddings never go according to plan and some go so far out of plan, it's all we can do just to keep up. I've seen toastmasters set a good pace for a day; I've met few Photographers who've kept the day moving, they're more interested in getting their shots. I think it's the moments where the day does go to pot that the compromise of offering 2 would show. It's certainly where it can show in my work when I do both Marryoke and Wedding Video. Do the clients notice, no of course not. I work too hard on the day and in the editing suite to let that happen, but it's there all the same, only noticeable to me as the Bride never ever sees what might have been.

Does it bother me that my Wedding Video is slightly compromised as a result of doing a Marryoke as well? Not really. It's business first, creative second. If there's such a thing as a hell and damnation for Wedding Videographers, perhaps I'll be judged harshly and confined with all those Photographers offering a Video add on service. On the other hand, my Bank Manager hasn't had need to call me in as of late, and he's much more frightening than anything the afterlife can conjure.

Last edited by Steve Burkett; February 4th, 2015 at 03:17 PM.
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Old February 4th, 2015, 04:42 PM   #67
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

Steve, your last line sums it up well :-) last year was my best for 30 years and I am now getting confirmed bookings through 2016/17/18 which I have never experienced before. I have just returned from a video viewing tonight which turned into a booking. I was there for 90 minutes at their request and they had viewed 9 other video companies without finding what they wanted.

I won't bother to go into why the others all missed out because it will just cover old ground again, but suffice it to say it wasn't the cost. I'm very happy with our product and if clients continue to feel the same I will remain a very happy man :-)

I find it interesting that you are able to manage a Marryoke on the wedding day, because I would find putting the time into that impossible without severely compromising my video. Maybe your abilities enable you to do that successfully without noticeable compromise to the video, just as my duel package does with me.

Roger
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Old February 4th, 2015, 05:20 PM   #68
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

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Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel View Post

I find it interesting that you are able to manage a Marryoke on the wedding day, because I would find putting the time into that impossible without severely compromising my video. Maybe your abilities enable you to do that successfully without noticeable compromise to the video, just as my duel package does with me.

Roger
Doing both can compromise both, if you have a Wedding that doesn't give you room to breath. I've got one this Saturday. I'm not sure which side this one will fall into; it's hard to tell. Timetables not as good as I'd like. If the Bride is late to church, the Photo Session video coverage takes a knocking. A few less beauty shots of guests drinking their drinks, chatting and having their photos taken. It's flavour shots, mostly to give the Bride and Groom shots of Guests who'll have starring roles in a music video anyway. You lose a few nuances, but maintain the substance. Personally I prefer doing just the Video, but it's market to be tapped and I do it well so I've been told. On the one hand it's an insult to my creative side that hates those sort of videos, on the other hand it's given me the best laughs when filming and pushes me out of my comfort zone.

Thing is, if people say either my video or Marryoke are compromised when I'm doing both, I say yes, but filming Weddings alone are themselves compromised; it's just a question of degrees. As long as I have some Weddings where I can give it my all, I'm happy. Besides if people are willing to pay me to compromise my work by juggling 2, I'm not going to say no.
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Old February 4th, 2015, 10:34 PM   #69
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

Hey Steve

Just for interest at what stage of the wedding do you shoot the MarryOke?? I'd love to do one but I cannot see a slot where it would work ...with someone else doing the photos I doubt whether I would find any time as photogs seem to want all the spare time for photos. I could do one maybe at a photo venue as long as wifey is doing the stills.

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Old February 5th, 2015, 04:25 AM   #70
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

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Just for interest at what stage of the wedding do you shoot the MarryOke??
Chris
There's a sweet spot between the Speeches and the First Dance; obviously different countries may not adhere to this and some of my Weddings have this at a reduced time. Here the room for the Wedding Breakfast has to be turned around for the Evening Party, with the DJ setting up his equipment. The Guests mingle. Rarely any photo sessions. If I get 45 minutes for this, I've got a good chance as long as I have a guest on tap for help (prearranged). They can round up some guests and tell me who I should and shouldn't go to.

However the Photo sessions aren't a waste too. Not all guests are having their photos done and then during the Bride and Groom formals, I've got say 15 minutes of the Guests all to myself. I run it like Guest Messages, go up and ask Guests for lines; later when they're drunk I just play the song and grab snatches of their dancing and miming. Then have it played on the dance floor and get the DJ to grab as many Guests as possible to come up, which fills in the gaps. If the latter doesn't cover it all or the dance footage of them all dancing to the song is crap, I just plug it with random dance footage from the evening and shots during the day. Results are wide ranging, as its down to the Guests how entertaining the final video is, but you work with what you have.
There was one I did that I hated, as filming went badly; then I return to the venue I had filmed it at and the staff there are saying how they saw it and thought it excellent. So there's room for margin with quality in results.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 08:29 AM   #71
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

That's really neat Steve ..do they have music to sing the lines to or do you let me do it blind and hope they keep roughly in time. We did one at our home Christmas Party a year ago and getting people to actually sing to the music was a nightmare so I could imagine how hard it would be to go to a bunch of half drunk guys and tell them ..sing these lines for me!

I really think you are a star for doing yours so well ..this took us ages to do and do over!

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Old February 5th, 2015, 09:35 AM   #72
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

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Originally Posted by Steve Burkett View Post

Thing is, if people say either my video or Marryoke are compromised when I'm doing both, I say yes, but filming Weddings alone are themselves compromised; it's just a question of degrees.
This is a very often forgotten point, whether you are filming video only, combined package or working with many assistants, you can never capture everything that happens at a wedding unless you have a camera person on everyone there. It's all a balance of influencing the flow where you can, maximising quieter moments to your advantage and keeping your eyes open. You could have ten camera operators and something can happen that none of them catch.

There are always the obvious points of the day that have to be captured at all costs, but even if you miss some of the other things that happen you will still get more than the couple see, so it's lose some gain some no matter how you work.

Roger

Last edited by Roger Gunkel; February 5th, 2015 at 09:39 AM. Reason: typo
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Old February 5th, 2015, 04:32 PM   #73
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

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do they have music to sing the lines to or do you let me do it blind and hope they keep roughly in time.
Bit of both really. I use music to grab longer sections when I get a group of 4 to sing along to the chorus. If you get enough groups doing the same, you can mix between them in the edit. Tried the yt vid, but blocked in the UK on copyright grounds. Shame.

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Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel View Post
There are always the obvious points of the day that have to be captured at all costs, but even if you miss some of the other things that happen you will still get more than the couple see, so it's lose some gain some no matter how you work.
Roger
I think the nub of peoples arguments here are that in providing as full a coverage as possible for a Wedding Video, a 2 person team will have greater advantage over a single shooter, just as a single shooter will have an advantage over a joint Photo/Video operator. That doesn't mean an automatic down slide in quality. If 2 guys, new to Weddings, end up covering one, the disadvantage of their lack of experience will more than out-way their advantage of being a 2 man team. Obviously this same principle works from solo to joint Photo/Video. However the advantage is still there for a proficient 2 man team to capitalise on and produce work that stands a better chance of exceeding mine as a single shooter. That doesn't mean I'm delivering a bad product, just one with an added restriction.

Frankly, unless we all compare videos, what is and isn't a compromise in our work becomes a theoretical exercise and probably one that's been debated enough. Your only problem Roger is you've now got 2 Professions judging you on your work. There's something I like to call Creative snobbery amongst Photo and Video Professionals. Even I'm not immune to this. The fact you do both will be held against you by some Videographers and Photographers too regardless of quality, simply to make their own work seem better in their own eyes. You'll need a thick skin.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 06:28 PM   #74
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

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Your only problem Roger is you've now got 2 Professions judging you on your work. There's something I like to call Creative snobbery amongst Photo and Video Professionals. Even I'm not immune to this. The fact you do both will be held against you by some Videographers and Photographers too regardless of quality, simply to make their own work seem better in their own eyes. You'll need a thick skin.
Surely though Steve that is the point, I'm not being judged by these two professions, only by my client. What other professionals may or may not think of my work is of no real interest to me, as my potential clients have the chance to compare my work with other professionals at every wedding show I do, before they make their choice.

Just coming back to your observations about solo combined packages as against solo video only or video with more than one camera person. I have never subscribed to the view that more is better as I have never had a problem getting the money shots on my own. I do agree that more than one person lightens the work load and gives a backup if there are unforeseen camera problems, but preparation and experience reduces the risks and makes you adaptable and able to react instantly to the unforeseen.

I do find that many of the multi camera person shoots that I have seen, seem to use the other shooters for different angles or positions during the ceremony, speeches, dances etc, but for the rest of the day just seem to cover general action shots that really can be covered by one person who knows exactly what they want. Unless they are working to a carefully pre planned shot list, they end up covering virtually the same things.

Different angles, camera positioning etc can be covered with judiciously placed locked cameras in most instances and in my case I also have two video cameras on my main manned tripod. That enables me to capture different framing and subjects at the same time, while concentrating on my main camera and regularly changing the shot on the tripod B cam. It is not something that I would suggest everyone should try, but I am very used to working that way and can easily also add a stills camera to the mix. A number of videographers seem to work with frame mounted DSLR cameras, which would make using a stills camera at the same time extremely difficult if not impossible, which is why I have been at pains to say that is essential to work in a totally different way for the dual package. You can't work in a double mode, it is a single mode geared totally to a dual product.

I have found the input on this thread very interesting, at times dismissive and others constructive, but always interesting :-) Whilst on interesting, I have worked with one photographer on many occasions over the last 12 years and have watched him progress through always having a second camera person, to working on his own with a variety of full frame DSLRs and interchangeable lenses. I worked with him a couple of times recently and he now takes virtually all his photos with a small high quality bridge camera. He still carries a Full frame with him, but says it is more for image now than use. He feels that he has much more flexibility on shots and can work far more quickly and efficiently than he ever has before. That is my philosophy also, small, light and very mobile. The quality of his work is very high and I have booked him for my daughter's wedding next year, over the many other very good photographers that I have worked with.

Ways of working are constantly changing and will continue to do so as fashion and technology moves on, for videographers, photographers and clients and this will inevitably lead to more combined packages in my opinion. Hopefully also to video having a higher profile with couples and an increasing percentage of weddings. Just as in dedicated packages, there will be good and not so good, but the client will be the final decider in what they want.

Roger
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Old February 5th, 2015, 06:44 PM   #75
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Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?

Hey Roger

That's it in a nutshell really! If the bride loves what you do then that is all that matters...If you are shooting video with one hand and stills with the other or doing the video just with two GoPropros then so what?

If the client is happy then I couldn't care less what self professed video/photog professionals think ... I'm getting good jobs with great couples and I'm happy with the end result.

We spend far too much time looking at perfection from a technical point of view that brides cannot even see. That is one of the reasons why I never post clips here for comment. (I think you have the same attitude too)

I just know that we now get a heap more enquiries and bookings because we offer video/photo packages and we are running a business so better sales means that we doing something right even if we are breaking technical rules by doing something ourselves that should be done individually.
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