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Old February 21st, 2015, 01:51 AM   #1
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I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

everything is getting smaller and holding a small camera in mid air kills my shots and my arms. Can't afford the big broadcast cameras, but I'd like to see a decent sensor and 4K XLR lanc and 60p on a good old fashion shoulder camera for superior stability which means good looking footage.

shoulder rigs are not gonna do what a real balanced shoulder camera can do with minimal effort or no efforts at all. (let's be honest .. a shoulder rig is an attempt to imitate a shoulder camera but it's NOT the same thing, plus they all add weight to all the wrong places, need counterweight and are hard to keep it on for hours or harder to put the thing on the table to rest a little
am I the only one?

I don't think that next year I will distribute on DVD anymore, so a good definition to compete against the dslrs is a must. 4K is the future but maaaan holding those little cameras in mid air is frustrating to say the least.

it's easy: a shoulder camera, three points of contact and 4K .

like the sony 2500 but with a definition at least better than a web cam! or the ac8 or 80 not based on the consumer handycams and with all the basic things to produce (lanc ecc.....)

I wish for a good shoulder camera for a decent price ..as it used to be.

/rant off
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Old February 21st, 2015, 09:10 AM   #2
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Here's the Sony HXR-MC2000: https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-...rmc2000u.shtml

And the Panasonic AG-HMC80: Panasonic AG-HMC80PJ Shoulder Mounted Camcorder - Professional Video Camera

I can't help but imagine there will be 4K / UHD versions of these in the near future. Hopefully.
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Old February 21st, 2015, 09:38 AM   #3
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

thanks Chris,

you just gave to samples of what I was talking about, exactly :)

the 2000 went backwards , even the 1000 was noticeably better in terms of pictures. The 2500 gives the same thing, and comes short with the viewfinder (literally... it doesn't reach the eye.. you end up with a neck pain for trying to make it to the show (in the viewfinder).

the 80 (HMC80) is nothing more than the 40 in a bigger body . shoots decent pictures (I had one) but lacks 60p and low light is painful to watch and difficult to shoot. fast action or sports in particular (which is what I do).

why this mania of all the new stuff on the small cameras and for a shoulder would be either the handycams with 2-3 years old technology on a bigger body or broadcast beasts (that cost an arm and a leg)

one alternative would be a JVC 850 , which is fine, stays nicely on the shoulder but no 4K and the cost is (again) up there. The FS7 is even more expensive but there are no lenses (the 28-135 is limited in range) but then again that's not really a shoulder camera, look how they hold it... it has the tendency of staying on the chest, and back we go again to a camera to be held in mid air
:)

what is wrong with the good old design of a real shoulder camera? I don't get it. Maybe because people won't buy it? what else? I really don't understand.
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Old February 21st, 2015, 02:03 PM   #4
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

If you're set on getting a shoulder mounted camera and would like to have 4K you may want to check out the AJA Cion if it's close to your price range:

AJA CION 4K/UHD and 2K/HD Production Camera CION-R0 B&H Photo

I personally think this camera would better suited for ENG work, but I will say that you will impress some clients if you show up with it :)
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Old February 21st, 2015, 06:20 PM   #5
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

michael,

yes, I saw that one. it doesn't show in the B&H pictures but I think that has the same arm (tripod friendly, NOT) as the FS7. Anyway few things I need :

4K , 60p , lanc, AF and zoom and a balanced shoulder mount for around 3-4K because I don't shoot movies :)

but you see that there are definitely more offers for movie cameras than wedding/event/onemandand sports. for the second category there are none. all small cameras, some of them so advanced that makes me think: maybe I am the only one wanting a decent shoulder body for a decent price. back to the movie gear : the movie people don't buy the cameras, they rent. so again I don't understand where this industry is going and why they are obsessed with the little cameras to be held in mid air.
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Old February 21st, 2015, 07:08 PM   #6
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Hi Anthony

The Panny and Sony's Chris has mentioned are indeed really low priced entry level cameras and I cannot see them going to 4K quite yet but it will happen. JVC make a similar plastic model with the same sort of performance.

My Sony EA-50's are in a different league in quality and build BUT as much as I love them and place them way above my old HMC80's they are still not true shoulder mount cameras as they don't balance on your shoulder ...even the EA-50 has a shoulder pad at the back of the camera, not in the middle where it should be!! The only REAL shoulder mount that's under $10K will indeed be the JVC 850 or 890 and their Fuji lenses have a huge range too.

So far with my need for 2 cameras that will cost me under $10K for both means the EA-50's were the best of the bunch at this stage. I was tempted to get the JVC's but alas the budget didn't cover me for nearly twice the price!

Chris
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Old February 21st, 2015, 07:51 PM   #7
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli View Post
...shoulder rigs are not gonna do what a real balanced shoulder camera can do with minimal effort or no efforts at all. (let's be honest .. a shoulder rig is an attempt to imitate a shoulder camera but it's NOT the same thing, plus they all add weight to all the wrong places, need counterweight and are hard to keep it on for hours or harder to put the thing on the table to rest a little
am I the only one? ...

I would just recommend revisiting the idea of a support system. There are so many supports out there, must be one that will work for you. Both of the designs I am going to recommend here are light-weight and do not require the use of any counterweights.

I have the DV Multirig. It's the one with the springy pole that you attach to your belt, and the other end attaches to the rig. This is a lightweight rig, not too expensive, and works surprisingly well. Allows me to just use one hand to steady the camera and still have one hand free to work the controls, as all the weight is supported by the piece resting on the shoulder and then the shock-absorbing pole in the front, there isn't any muscle fatigue to deal with. I've used it mainly with my XF305, which is a very front-heavy camera. Downsides: I never know what to do with the pole when I want to switch over to free-handing. Needs a sheath or scabbard . I also had a helluvatime trying to order off the guy's website (Israel) and fortunately another DVinfo user was just selling his at that time so I bought from him. Visit the web-site and check out his newer "Pro" models, going for about $400.

I don't have one of those shoulder/chest clamping supports, but have tried them on. There are varying levels of build quality and the ones I've handled have been of the lesser quality type, so I passed. Plan to get one and see how it goes. Maybe this one from Ikan:

ikan Recoil Camera Stabilization ELE-RECOIL B&H Photo Video

I've concluded that the perfect should-mount camera does not exist for me, so rather than compromise on the camera, I went the support route, even with some drawbacks and all.

Mark
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Old February 21st, 2015, 08:16 PM   #8
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Hi Anthony

When I use the EA-50 with it rear shoulder mount pad and I have a big heavy lens on the camera ...(my Sigma 18-35 F1.8 is a good deal over 2lbs!) The camera does get pretty heavy so what I use is a waist belt with a mini ball head on the front and then a sprung rod that goes up to a point on the rails just under the front of the lens (the rod of the rod also has a flexi joint) This effectively takes all the weight off your arms and you still have the advantage of the 3 point contact and end up with virtually no weight to try and hold up!! DV Tec make them but mine is a custom one made from the cheap Indian copy ($79!!) and works really well .... You can see the operation at EngRig full size shoulder system for camcorders - ***** DVTEC camera supports This sounds much like what Mark is talking about too and better than a full rig.

This is the Indian one is here : http://www.thecinecity.com/eshop/CAM...pport-Rod.html but needs a better bottom swivel

It's great cos you can disconnect the rod instantly and be back to a normal camera in seconds whereas with a full rig you are stuck with it

Chris
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Old February 22nd, 2015, 01:24 AM   #9
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Yes! well said, I completely agree. The JVC850 gives one of the cleanest HD Ive ever seen. but we are in the middle of some kind of revolution regarding the media for distribution now (for the onemanband people I mean). DVD is dead, blu-ray never really made it so it will be on memory cards or some kind of cheap hdmi player to include with the cost of the service. And for THAT we need to invest wisely, and 4K is the future (I have no doubt about it)

Investing on the JVC850 or 890 is not wise in my opinion, it can become obsolete in few months after the purchase.
but that camera has everything, everything (ok, no 4K... even JVC gave 4K to a small camera.. can't understand why!!!!!!! )
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Old February 22nd, 2015, 08:51 AM   #10
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Harding View Post
Hi Anthony

When I use the EA-50 with it rear shoulder mount pad and I have a big heavy lens on the camera ...(my Sigma 18-35 F1.8 is a good deal over 2lbs!) The camera does get pretty heavy so what I use is a waist belt with a mini ball head on the front and then a sprung rod that goes up to a point on the rails just under the front of the lens (the rod of the rod also has a flexi joint) This effectively takes all the weight off your arms and you still have the advantage of the 3 point contact and end up with virtually no weight to try and hold up!! DV Tec make them but mine is a custom one made from the cheap Indian copy ($79!!) and works really well .... You can see the operation at EngRig full size shoulder system for camcorders - ***** DVTEC camera supports This sounds much like what Mark is talking about too and better than a full rig.

This is the Indian one is here : DSLR Rig Support Rod|Shoulder Mount|Waist Belt but needs a better bottom swivel

It's great cos you can disconnect the rod instantly and be back to a normal camera in seconds whereas with a full rig you are stuck with it

Chris
yes again. but those are all imitations of a real shoulder camera, in my opinion. The idea of the stick goes back in time to hold even a shoulder body for long takes, it was made by smith victor if I remember correctly, they called it camera stick or something like that.
about the DVtec version I like (and Ive been told by this next guy in the video that I attach here) that's good for allowing some sort of pneumatic counter-movement for tilting.
take a look at his clever adaptation, practical. Fabio is now an actor (so he went to the other side of the lens LOL) but he was very enthusiastic about it. Don't know if he still uses the thing though


what I remember about the smith victor stick was that it was kinda rigid. Anyway once you have a balanced camera on your shoulder tilting and panning are a pleasure, without any support.

the future of small cameras stabilization is a gimbal, in my opinion. That's maybe the only reason to go the "smaller" route for a picture in motion machine :)

the beauty of a shoulder camera is unmatched still by any handheld, no matter what rig you get.
if only they will make'em with the new stuff in it instead of wasting plastic re-fitting the consumer left over models.
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Old February 23rd, 2015, 05:40 PM   #11
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Hi Anthony

My support rod (as they call it) is spring loaded ...It has two sections each with a different size spring in it and you can adjust each section to get the right "feel" Due to the balljoints top and bottom it's far from a rigid stick and doesn't interfere with any camera movements ..it simply takes the weight off the front for me ..I only use it for long handheld sessions BTW ..things like dancing at weddings ..otherwise it stays in the case!

Be careful with gimbals .. you end up with the same issue if you buy a half decent gimbal and that is sore arms! Apart from the tiny ones that use a GoPro the one that can carry a normal camera weight a lot so you end up still having to lug not only a camera but also a gimbal rig that weighs nearly the same!! Sure they have handgrips but you still end up with the same issue of having to carry double the weight on your arms!! You might get stabilised footage but your arms will be even more sore!!!

Chris
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Old February 24th, 2015, 12:36 AM   #12
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Chris,

it really looks like we are in the same exact boat here : we need a decent shoulder body. It IS that simple. We go crazy trying all the possible devices to end up to the same conclusion.

yes the gimbal idea is a joke at the moment, but if you think about it will be the ONLY reason for the future of mini cams, what else those mini cams can do?

wee need a decent shoulder body with 4K and the new stuff. enough of the handycams and miniature dslrs to shoot breathtaking footage for free of the local rock band.
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Old February 24th, 2015, 07:57 AM   #13
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

The AJA Cion ? Yeah right!!! $9K for just the body and that's just the box ! You still have to add batteries and even an EVF and mic and a bunch of lenses so we are talking an absolute minimum of $20K +++++

We need to get practical ... it's no good investing $40K in two cameras if they are going to make you $20K a year! Sure, if you are doing corporate shoots at $60K a pop then they become feasible!!

Anthony? Why do you want 4K now ? Have all your clients got 4K TV's and even if they do what media are you intending to use to distribute 4K footage to clients?? I think too many people want a 4K camera simply because it's the latest thing to hit the market .. what will happen in 2017 when someone brings out an 8K camera ...will you sell your 4K cameras on the spot ??

I do mostly weddings and what do brides ask for? DVD's ..not my choice putting 1080 downsized to SD DVD but they are the client and that's what they want. My 1080 cameras are already way too high in resolution for DVD so really how do I supply 4K to a bride who insists on DVD's ???

I have a business that generates a meagre $75K a year from video so in my opinion two 1080 cameras at $3K each is a nice balance and I'm not over-capitalizing either.

So far the EA-50 is the nicest configuration I can find and uses all my Nikon lenses too ..if you can find something better for less money I'd love to know!!

Chris
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Old February 24th, 2015, 09:51 AM   #14
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Quote:
I think too many people want a 4K camera simply because it's the latest thing to hit the market
You don't know what you are missing :) the cropping ability alone without loss in detail is worth every cent I spent on a 4K camera. If you shoot wedding solo that opens up so much possiblities that are otherwise impossible with 1080p camera's.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 08:44 AM   #15
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Re: I wish for a shoulder camera for a decent price

Remember the HD discussions? there were no TV sets for that, remember that? look at us now. 4K is the same thing. For now you shoot static scenes in 4K and render as 1080. Amazing stuff, Chris. Amazing. Then once the X70 gets 4K we can try the profile thing and put all the detail down to see if we can also pan a little in 4K. Maybe we can, slowly.
:)
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