Adding Movement

Phil Stanley · March 13th, 2015, 03:25 PM

Thanks for your feedback Steven

I am more than happy to put the work in where required, I am grateful to receive such great advice from the people on here

Noa Put · March 13th, 2015, 03:52 PM

Remember though, if you plan on using a Merlin or Blackbird outside and it's windy conditions, they become pretty useless.

Dave Blackhurst · March 14th, 2015, 05:05 AM

Just to throw a curveball at you... you mentioned the AX33, which has a built in gimbal system... it's designed to do pretty much what a "stabilizer" will be doing, but with internal gyros and motors linked into the camera's imaging system so it will react faster and be more immune to things like wind than a "rig" would be

SO, the thing you'l need to get down is the "steadycam walk" to avoid "bouncy" footage, and a decent understanding of the physics of what gimbal systems are doing so you get maximum benefit and best results. The "magic eyeball" will do quite a bit of the "heavy lifting" for you.

To that, I'd add a monopod with enough weight to act as a counterbalance, similar to how a glidecam works. I've recently switched to Sirui brand with larger fold out "feet" than the similar Bogen ones - the one I've got seems to allow me to "fly" my AX100 rather well...

With s little practice, you can pull off quite a few "steadicam style" moves, not to mention all the other "tricks" you can pull with a decent monopod! I liked the Bogen ones with the little feet, really like the Sirui's long feet/bigger footprint, though they are harder to find and a tad pricey... The weight of the foot assembly acts much like the weights on your typical "rig".

And it's probably a good idea to watch some "pro" steadicam work to get a feel for how the moves should look - if you search DVi for "Charles Papert", you'll find lots of good "stuff" from a pro Steadi operator who contributed to these forums quite a lot (he's since moved on up to directing and such, I think!).

Phil Stanley · March 14th, 2015, 06:23 AM

Thanks Dave some great feedback there

I was not sure how effective the stabilisation on the AX33 was, and if you should in fact leave it on when using a rig of some sort

I'll have a play with my Monopod

Noa Put · March 14th, 2015, 06:39 AM

Do you have a ax33 to test? I have a cx730 which has the same sort of stabilisation as the ax33, if you want I can do a simple test using a monopod while walking, or shooting handheld without a monopod while walking, it won't look as good as a steadicam but might work for your needs?

Nigel Barker · March 14th, 2015, 10:47 AM

The actual task of flying a Steadicam without wobbles is becoming completely de-skilled with the advent of the many brushless gimbal systems on the market. However the camera skills of composition & framing etc are just as important as ever.

It might be difficult to choose the best most robust & reliable brushless gimbal system at the moment but I am sure that in a year or two a market leader or two will establish themselves. The pricing will be competitive with the Merlin.

Noa Put · March 14th, 2015, 11:27 AM

These brushless gimbals don't take out walking steps so they are not idiot proof :)

Steven Digges · March 14th, 2015, 12:21 PM

I just went to the CameTV website and got a good laugh. They put big red warning type at the top of their page that says "Warning some websites are selling fake CameTV products. Make sure it has the CameTV logo if you want the real thing."

If you go to e-bay you can see some of their exact items for hundreds less. It must be tough being a counterfeiter when you get counterfeited. Just sayin ;)

Steve

Phil Stanley · March 14th, 2015, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Do you have a ax33 to test? I have a cx730 which has the same sort of stabilisation as the ax33, if you want I can do a simple test using a monopod while walking, or shooting handheld without a monopod while walking, it won't look as good as a steadicam but might work for your needs?

Noa

I only have the AX100 at present, but that would be great if you could do that.
We are getting on great with the AX100

Dave Blackhurst · March 15th, 2015, 12:52 AM

Offhand, I'd say leave the BOSS OIS on when "flying" on a monopod, it should take out some of the wobbles. You still have to find the "sweet spot" for balance on the monopod shaft, and watch that you don't get a bouncy "twist" - I seem to get that one handed, two hands seems to "fix" it... you have to work on technique to be sure.

Frankly half the battle is understanding the physics, and learning the "walk" and the handling - even steadi operators take some time to get the whammy on it - no "rig" is going to be "pick it up and go" for perfect shots... no matter how much you spend and what they promise. I've tried a few, have a few laying around, and at the moment, I think my current AX100/Sirui P424X combo is about as good as I can expect if I don't want to have a full vest/arm/steadi system... that's IF I focus on my "walk", holding the framing, and stay composed!

The AX33 should be similar to the older CX/PJ BOSS systems, and I'd expect it to do a better job than the AX100's OIS - some footage has been posted elsewhere (think it's under the X70/AX100 section), stabilization looks good, not sure about the image quality just yet... the thought of going back to a small sensor gives me pause... but a gimbal for the AX100 imaging block would be HUGE!

Chris Harding · March 15th, 2015, 03:54 AM

Hi Steve

Ripoffs or not the Wieldy system which seems to use the CAME-TV vest is a cut above the rest ... in fact when I bought it the seller asked if I minded that the logo plate on the vest was missing. However the Wieldy logos are all over the carbon fibre sled but the dual arm has no decals on it either.

I was under the impression that one factory would make the gear and simply brand it to whoever wants to retail it ... It is however miles better than the Indian ones which also come in a dozen different flavours and certainly is the nicest rig I have ever flown (it's my 7th!!!!) I did go the gimbal electronic route but as Noa says it only corrects over 3 axis (like a handheld stedicam sled only. You need the arm and springs to take out the walking and bouncing.

Some intrepid operators have actually mated both systems so you have an electronic gimbal sitting on a stedicam arm and vest which solves the problem nicely.... I'm still a big stedicam fan as I do a lot of shoots over rough terrain and often up and down stairs. The 2nd issue of course is that decent 3 axis gimbals that will accept a reasonable sized camera weigh 2 or 3 pounds so add the camera and you have to do some serious gym training just to hold it!!

Chris

Noa Put · March 15th, 2015, 09:00 AM

Phil, here's the cx730, which I believe has the same stabilization then the ax33. Just to give you an idea, the stabilization of the ax100 comes nowhere near what the cx730 can do.

I put the cx730 on a monopod and then followed 2 subjects with the stabilization mode on active, it was a bit windy but it doesn't look that bad. The camera was in full auto so exposure is a bit all over the place and it's a low rez file I uploaded but it's just to show what you could do with such a stabilization on a stick.

The second video was after I let it run through a demo version of mercalli which I"m experimenting with. Here you have to take into account that the 1080p file gets a resolution hit which will not be a issue if you shoot 4K with the ax33 and use that file in a 1080p project, that will retain plenty of detail if you want to match it up with other 1080p camera's.

Phil Stanley · March 15th, 2015, 06:05 PM

Noa

Huge thanks for taking the time and effort to do this.

I am highly impressed and would be more than happy if I could achieve those results.

I think I'll get my Monopod out and practice with the EM5 II

Thanks again

Phil

Noa Put · March 16th, 2015, 06:28 AM

No problem, just remember when you walk take small steps and bend your knees slightly, that takes a part of the wobble out caused by the walking. I"m experimenting with Mercally as especially with 4K footage the results when stabilizing footage is very good, the only problem I have with it is it's price, 200 dollar for something that only stabilizes footage is quite high, they have a stand alone version and a plugin for edius, the result on both is the same, only the time needed to analyze the footage in edius is about 10 times slower then the standalone version, I hate making roundtrips outside my nle.

Chris Harding · March 16th, 2015, 07:15 AM

Hi Phil

As Noa says small steps and bent knees .. pretend you are a cat burglar sneaking past a family watching TV so you can rob their valuables ... we tend to walk in a very bouncing matter naturally so if you can smooth out your movements even a non stabilised lens can produce quite nice footage. The thing that gives it away is where the top of the frame changes so that is what you need to try to avoid. The stedicam training trick is easy to practice at home. Put an X with tape on the end of a passage wall in the house around 1.8m up from the floor and if you don't have grids on your camera then just estimate centre frame. Walk towards the "X" and try to keep it in the same place as you walk smoothly towards it ...that sort of practice will get your movements a lot better and will become natural ...On my stedicam I can run raw footage and the frame stays exactly where it is now ...when I started the top frame of the picture looked like a yoyo!!

Chris

March 13th, 2015, 03:25 PM	#16
Phil Stanley Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: London Posts: 148	Re: Adding Movement Thanks for your feedback Steven I am more than happy to put the work in where required, I am grateful to receive such great advice from the people on here

March 13th, 2015, 03:52 PM	#17
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Adding Movement Remember though, if you plan on using a Merlin or Blackbird outside and it's windy conditions, they become pretty useless.

March 14th, 2015, 05:05 AM	#18
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Adding Movement Just to throw a curveball at you... you mentioned the AX33, which has a built in gimbal system... it's designed to do pretty much what a "stabilizer" will be doing, but with internal gyros and motors linked into the camera's imaging system so it will react faster and be more immune to things like wind than a "rig" would be SO, the thing you'l need to get down is the "steadycam walk" to avoid "bouncy" footage, and a decent understanding of the physics of what gimbal systems are doing so you get maximum benefit and best results. The "magic eyeball" will do quite a bit of the "heavy lifting" for you. To that, I'd add a monopod with enough weight to act as a counterbalance, similar to how a glidecam works. I've recently switched to Sirui brand with larger fold out "feet" than the similar Bogen ones - the one I've got seems to allow me to "fly" my AX100 rather well... With s little practice, you can pull off quite a few "steadicam style" moves, not to mention all the other "tricks" you can pull with a decent monopod! I liked the Bogen ones with the little feet, really like the Sirui's long feet/bigger footprint, though they are harder to find and a tad pricey... The weight of the foot assembly acts much like the weights on your typical "rig". And it's probably a good idea to watch some "pro" steadicam work to get a feel for how the moves should look - if you search DVi for "Charles Papert", you'll find lots of good "stuff" from a pro Steadi operator who contributed to these forums quite a lot (he's since moved on up to directing and such, I think!).

March 14th, 2015, 06:23 AM	#19
Phil Stanley Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: London Posts: 148	Re: Adding Movement Thanks Dave some great feedback there I was not sure how effective the stabilisation on the AX33 was, and if you should in fact leave it on when using a rig of some sort I'll have a play with my Monopod

March 14th, 2015, 06:39 AM	#20
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Adding Movement Do you have a ax33 to test? I have a cx730 which has the same sort of stabilisation as the ax33, if you want I can do a simple test using a monopod while walking, or shooting handheld without a monopod while walking, it won't look as good as a steadicam but might work for your needs?

March 14th, 2015, 10:47 AM	#21
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: Adding Movement The actual task of flying a Steadicam without wobbles is becoming completely de-skilled with the advent of the many brushless gimbal systems on the market. However the camera skills of composition & framing etc are just as important as ever. It might be difficult to choose the best most robust & reliable brushless gimbal system at the moment but I am sure that in a year or two a market leader or two will establish themselves. The pricing will be competitive with the Merlin.

March 14th, 2015, 11:27 AM	#22
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Adding Movement These brushless gimbals don't take out walking steps so they are not idiot proof :)

March 14th, 2015, 12:21 PM	#23
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Adding Movement I just went to the CameTV website and got a good laugh. They put big red warning type at the top of their page that says "Warning some websites are selling fake CameTV products. Make sure it has the CameTV logo if you want the real thing." If you go to e-bay you can see some of their exact items for hundreds less. It must be tough being a counterfeiter when you get counterfeited. Just sayin ;) Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

March 15th, 2015, 12:52 AM	#25
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Adding Movement Offhand, I'd say leave the BOSS OIS on when "flying" on a monopod, it should take out some of the wobbles. You still have to find the "sweet spot" for balance on the monopod shaft, and watch that you don't get a bouncy "twist" - I seem to get that one handed, two hands seems to "fix" it... you have to work on technique to be sure. Frankly half the battle is understanding the physics, and learning the "walk" and the handling - even steadi operators take some time to get the whammy on it - no "rig" is going to be "pick it up and go" for perfect shots... no matter how much you spend and what they promise. I've tried a few, have a few laying around, and at the moment, I think my current AX100/Sirui P424X combo is about as good as I can expect if I don't want to have a full vest/arm/steadi system... that's IF I focus on my "walk", holding the framing, and stay composed! The AX33 should be similar to the older CX/PJ BOSS systems, and I'd expect it to do a better job than the AX100's OIS - some footage has been posted elsewhere (think it's under the X70/AX100 section), stabilization looks good, not sure about the image quality just yet... the thought of going back to a small sensor gives me pause... but a gimbal for the AX100 imaging block would be HUGE!

March 15th, 2015, 03:54 AM	#26
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Adding Movement Hi Steve Ripoffs or not the Wieldy system which seems to use the CAME-TV vest is a cut above the rest ... in fact when I bought it the seller asked if I minded that the logo plate on the vest was missing. However the Wieldy logos are all over the carbon fibre sled but the dual arm has no decals on it either. I was under the impression that one factory would make the gear and simply brand it to whoever wants to retail it ... It is however miles better than the Indian ones which also come in a dozen different flavours and certainly is the nicest rig I have ever flown (it's my 7th!!!!) I did go the gimbal electronic route but as Noa says it only corrects over 3 axis (like a handheld stedicam sled only. You need the arm and springs to take out the walking and bouncing. Some intrepid operators have actually mated both systems so you have an electronic gimbal sitting on a stedicam arm and vest which solves the problem nicely.... I'm still a big stedicam fan as I do a lot of shoots over rough terrain and often up and down stairs. The 2nd issue of course is that decent 3 axis gimbals that will accept a reasonable sized camera weigh 2 or 3 pounds so add the camera and you have to do some serious gym training just to hold it!! Chris

March 15th, 2015, 09:00 AM	#27
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Adding Movement Phil, here's the cx730, which I believe has the same stabilization then the ax33. Just to give you an idea, the stabilization of the ax100 comes nowhere near what the cx730 can do. I put the cx730 on a monopod and then followed 2 subjects with the stabilization mode on active, it was a bit windy but it doesn't look that bad. The camera was in full auto so exposure is a bit all over the place and it's a low rez file I uploaded but it's just to show what you could do with such a stabilization on a stick. Vimeo The second video was after I let it run through a demo version of mercalli which I"m experimenting with. Here you have to take into account that the 1080p file gets a resolution hit which will not be a issue if you shoot 4K with the ax33 and use that file in a 1080p project, that will retain plenty of detail if you want to match it up with other 1080p camera's. Vimeo

March 15th, 2015, 06:05 PM	#28
Phil Stanley Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: London Posts: 148	Re: Adding Movement Noa Huge thanks for taking the time and effort to do this. I am highly impressed and would be more than happy if I could achieve those results. I think I'll get my Monopod out and practice with the EM5 II Thanks again Phil

March 16th, 2015, 06:28 AM	#29
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Adding Movement No problem, just remember when you walk take small steps and bend your knees slightly, that takes a part of the wobble out caused by the walking. I"m experimenting with Mercally as especially with 4K footage the results when stabilizing footage is very good, the only problem I have with it is it's price, 200 dollar for something that only stabilizes footage is quite high, they have a stand alone version and a plugin for edius, the result on both is the same, only the time needed to analyze the footage in edius is about 10 times slower then the standalone version, I hate making roundtrips outside my nle.

March 16th, 2015, 07:15 AM	#30
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Adding Movement Hi Phil As Noa says small steps and bent knees .. pretend you are a cat burglar sneaking past a family watching TV so you can rob their valuables ... we tend to walk in a very bouncing matter naturally so if you can smooth out your movements even a non stabilised lens can produce quite nice footage. The thing that gives it away is where the top of the frame changes so that is what you need to try to avoid. The stedicam training trick is easy to practice at home. Put an X with tape on the end of a passage wall in the house around 1.8m up from the floor and if you don't have grids on your camera then just estimate centre frame. Walk towards the "X" and try to keep it in the same place as you walk smoothly towards it ...that sort of practice will get your movements a lot better and will become natural ...On my stedicam I can run raw footage and the frame stays exactly where it is now ...when I started the top frame of the picture looked like a yoyo!! Chris