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Old September 2nd, 2015, 10:05 AM   #16
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

Adam Wilt agrees!

Before you rush out to buy V-Log L for your GH4...

Quote:
The DVX-200 uses the same V-Log L curve, has a similar MFT sensor, and records 4:2:0 8-bit internally, just as the GH4 does.

Once it's graded, it's a noisy li'l bastard.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 10:27 AM   #17
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

Gary, I'm writing these messages on a phone on a train, inbetween munching on a late lunch and you're analysing each of my points as if cast in stone. This is just general chat and speculation for me not a debate.

V log interests me as its something I've yet to experiment with. Playing with it and using it for critical shots is quite different. I have no knowledge to disapprove what you say, but no reason to accept it blindly either. I don't know you, nor seen your work, so to accept what you say at face value is alas a leap of faith I'm not prepared to take. Not saying you're wrong, but I reserve the right to find out for myself. If v log proves useless in low light, then I won't use it in low light; if exposure is an issue in daylight, I'll use accordingly.

Gary, I'm not sure a friendly wager is applicable here, if only because you never come over as particularly friendly. Are you this fierce in real life, or is this reserved only for your internet personae?
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 10:35 AM   #18
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

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Originally Posted by Steve Burkett View Post
Gary, I'm writing these messages on a phone on a train, inbetween munching on a late lunch and you're analysing each of my points as if cast in stone.
With that much drama, you should write a novel.

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This is just general chat and speculation for me not a debate.
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Originally Posted by Steve Burkett View Post
You're clearly a glass half empty sort of person. What happened to looking on the bright side, a touch of cheerful optimism.
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Originally Posted by Steve Burkett View Post
I confess to never taking seriously anyone who says they know what they're talking about.
Is this how you generally "chat" and make "speculation"? You can speculate all you want, but it's clearly not from a good foundation (I could "speculate" on all kinds of things I am ignorant about, but it doesn't' mean that people that are experts in those fields will take me seriously at all).

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Not saying you're wrong, but I reserve the right to find out for myself.
And where did I tell you not to test it? Where did I say anything of the sort? The most you can accuse me of is snarking against the future posts of people who need help because they shot something in low-light in Vlog without testing it first and now it's a noisy, smeary mess. If you can directly quote me where I said that you shouldn't test it for yourself, then please enlighten me.

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If v log proves useless in low light, then I won't use it in low light; if exposure is an issue in daylight, I'll use accordingly.
So now you're agreeing with me after calling me a cynic and saying you cannot take what I say seriously. And around and around we go!

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Gary, I'm not sure a friendly wager is applicable here, if only because you never come over as particularly friendly. Are you this fierce in real life, or is this reserved only for your internet personae?
Do you constantly berate people for not being all Pollyanna in real life?
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 10:36 AM   #19
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

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Now this is more like it. Less flat out statements and more reasons behind it. Good article. You failed to mention that the issue is more the 8 bit 4 2 0 recording of the GH4 that's part of the problem and that an external recorder can eliminate the issue. This is very useful information as I plan on buying an external recorder.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 10:39 AM   #20
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

Sorry Gary, reached my stop, so it's ta ra. Thanks for keeping me entertained on a long train journey. We must do it again sometime. All the best. :)
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 10:42 AM   #21
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

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Originally Posted by Steve Burkett View Post
You failed to mention that the issue is more the 8 bit 4 2 0 recording of the GH4 that's part of the problem and that an external recorder can eliminate the issue.
Because that's where Adam is wrong. That won't help the noise issue at all.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 12:18 PM   #22
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

Correct, it won't help a potential noise issue, but if it is recorded, via external recorder, at 10 bit 4:2:2 in 4k, it will likely not be a "smeary mess" regardless of noise. That being said, the noise will be significantly smaller when converted to 1080 and likely less noticeable and on top of that, something like DeNoiser or Neat Video will have a much easier time with something in 10bit 4:2:2 at 4k than with anything 8 bit 4:2:0 regardless of resolution.

My point is that although V Log may be a smeary mess when recorded in low light at 8 bit 4:2:0, it may be very usable in 10 bit 4:2:2, especially if you have a plug in like that of DeNoiser or Neat Video.

Regards,

Matthias Claflin
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 12:29 PM   #23
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

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Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin View Post
Correct, it won't help a potential noise issue, but if it is recorded, via external recorder, at 10 bit 4:2:2 in 4k, it will likely not be a "smeary mess" regardless of noise.
Depends. 3200 and above it will be, just in 4K at 800Mbps.

Quote:
That being said, the noise will be significantly smaller when converted to 1080 and likely less noticeable and on top of that, something like DeNoiser or Neat Video will have a much easier time with something in 10bit 4:2:2 at 4k than with anything 8 bit 4:2:0 regardless of resolution.
It's not as big a difference as you think it will be (having done it) and using Neat Video on 4K material is going to let your system render for (potentially) days.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 03:21 PM   #24
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

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Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin View Post

My point is that although V Log may be a smeary mess when recorded in low light at 8 bit 4:2:0, it may be very usable in 10 bit 4:2:2, especially if you have a plug in like that of DeNoiser or Neat Video.
To be honest I'm not sure how much I'd want to turn to v log for low light stuff. Mostly thats just dance floor shots, some evening Reception footage. I have it more in mind for some outdoor sunny shots, if I was to use it for Weddings. Maybe during the Ceremony. I'm editing one now which could have used a few extra stops of DR.
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 04:26 AM   #25
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

Really to bad they did not made the removal of the recording limit available through a paid firmware upgrade for existing GH4 owners, I gladly would have paid for that. V-log is something I don't need for my work, I could get a new GH4r but I already have too many camera's as it is :)
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 04:52 AM   #26
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Really to bad they did not made the removal of the recording limit available through a paid firmware upgrade for existing GH4 owners, I gladly would have paid for that. V-log is something I don't need for my work, I could get a new GH4r but I already have too many camera's as it is :)
It's possible that providing a firmware update to remove the recording limit would raise complicated tax issues. It's also possible of course that it doesn't raise any tax issues at all as it's only at the point of import of the camcorder with no recording limit that the customs duty is raised when the camcorder enters the EU. Providing a paid-for or even free piece of software after import shouldn't mean that they can retrospectively impose the tax.

Most likely Panasonic wants you to buy a new GH4r which is priced higher than the costs of a GH4 plus the cost of the v-log firmware upgrade.
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 05:00 AM   #27
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

Panasonic will be making more money by selling a updated camera version, I think most camera manufacturers do that instead of providing firmware updates to existing camera's. They do listen to complaints from their users but they let you pay for the good stuff :)
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:15 AM   #28
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

I'm now thinking of replacing my GH2's with a GH4r and my GH3 with an AX100. The recording limit on the GH3 has really bugged me of late. I also do a bit of corporate, where recording needs to be continuous for more than 30 minutes. I've used my GH2's in such cases, so would be nice to replace those. Like Noa, I wish the recording limit was a firmware upgrade too. I'm interested in V Log, so will get that as unlike Noa I do see a use for it, but I've no objections to paying for it. I think its a significant upgrade to warrant some charge and nothing is ever free. We all charge for extras in our Business, so we can't begrudge others doing the same.
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 08:26 AM   #29
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Panasonic will be making more money by selling a updated camera version
People would have complained if they'd had to pay the video camera VAT on the GH4 back when it launched at 1299? Now that it's a model that will probably be supplanted by the GH5 next May, it's at 1,198 (including VAT). That's a helluva deal if, like Steve, you're on GH2/3 and looking to upgrade and would prefer not to have a recording limit.
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 09:34 AM   #30
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Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.

Just to put the camcorder tax into perspective. It's not VAT ( a sales tax) it's a customs import duty of 4.9% levied on the wholesale price of camcorders imported into the EU. If the camera was made in the EU it wouldn't be subject to the tax. I don't know what the margins are on cameras but if the wholesale price was 1000 the duty would only be 49.
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