UDH Blu Ray Player is the future!

Steve Burkett · September 14th, 2015, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin

Although this may be true for theaters across the board, I would say IMAX has become fairly popular, at least where I am we have three theaters in my area that have either IMAX or an equivalent that is significantly larger/higher quality than typical screens.

IMAX is slowly spreading across the UK; I have one nearby, just the one. Other Cinemas have 4K screens but very limited in what they offer on it. Due to the restrictions on times and facilities, most movies I've seen this year have been on HD screens and frankly I've found the image quality disappointing. Remaining movies this year I plan to see either in IMAX or 4K screens as it feels a waste of money otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin

At a bridal show yesterday I kept hinting to brides that we offer Blu Rays and they didn't care. Almost all the brides said they wanted DVDs, and they didn't care about Blu Rays. Only one groom even understood the difference.

That being said, it was a smaller show, but for now, I'll just keep chugging along trying to sell the idea of HD delivery to my clients.

I think you have to sell it to the Bride not as a Bluray or even HD vs SD, but as difference in quality, both resolution and colour. One of the things I plan to do over the winter months is prepare a new sample DVD that also explains this difference between formats - how the image is altered to fit a DVD. Many are confused and think DVD's are HD. There's a lot of ignorance and its often hard for us as Professionals to see it. I think if Brides were educated to realise the benefits that HD can bring with resolution and colour, you might get a better response. Not saying you'd have the bluray requests flooding in; however at a show I did this year, I did show SD samples and 4K samples on my 4K screen and that did have an impact.

Obviously when selling 4K I focus on the wide shots in the Ceremony; seeing more of peoples faces and their reactions. The detail of the dress and outfits worn by guests, whilst explaining how software allows me to target faces and soften them for the screen whilst preserving the important details in jewellery. So I try to approach it from their perspective rather than mine.

Matthias Claflin · September 14th, 2015, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

I did show SD samples and 4K samples on my 4K screen and that did have an impact.

This seems like an excellent idea to push for HD/4k over SD. They don't really understand unless they see the difference in person. I don't push the whole HD thing as much at shows because I'm more interested in them actually deciding on me over others in my area, and sell them on HD at a later date, but either way, physically showing them the difference is a good idea. I had just been trying to explain it instead of show them. Thanks!

Roger Gunkel · September 14th, 2015, 12:07 PM

Had another wedding show yesterday, very busy and lots of brides. I broached the subject of 4k to quite a few couples and only one guy all day was aware of what it was and I was amazed that so many had never even heard of it. I explained the big improvement in picture quality and that was followed up by a comment from him about how good the quality was of the video we were running and was it 4k? I said it was just a DVD and he asked if it was a 4k DVD!!!

I think we have a long way to go before people understand it, although as Steve says, showing them the difference may be of benefit. The only thing that bothers me about that is that they may then expect their wedding video to look equally as sharp, without understanding how much new equipment they will need to invest in to view it that way.

I did speak to the only other video company there that surprisingly had only upgraded their cameras to HD this year. They were highly impressed with the fact that we have a pair of 4k cameras, whereas the potential clients were basically disinterested because of the lack of understanding. In future I will only mention it if asked although I will include it in the promotion for the benefit ofthose who understand it.

Roger

Steve Burkett · September 14th, 2015, 12:41 PM

A Wedding Video company that's only upgraded to HD; wow and even last year I was telling clients that no Professional Videographer would be working with SD only cameras when they broach me on HD. Even for SD delivery, HD cameras deliver better results, just as 4K delivers better HD. To put it into perspective, I filmed a Wedding last year late September, where I spoke to the Photographer about my camera and thought to impress him by saying it did 4K, only to learn the last company he worked with had 3 GH4's and were offering 4K packages. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised really.

I don't expect clients to be impressed with 4K until they have 4K TV's and even then HD will suffice them. If I sell it to them at all, it is for the HQ video grabs and improved picture quality. Just say to them that 4K gives them a considerably better picture and thats all they need to hear. Of course it helps to show off some 4K, which I did at this show. You can't expect people to imagine a better picture from 4K, they have to see it.

Matthias Claflin · September 14th, 2015, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

A Wedding Video company that's only upgraded to HD; wow and even last year I was telling clients that no Professional Videographer would be working with SD only cameras when they broach me on HD.

I ran into a guy this year who said he was shooting 480p because he knew they were only going to order DVDs. I couldn't believe he wouldn't shoot in HD (considering his camera was clearly capable. I believe it was a Panasonic AG-AC90) Maybe he was trying to conserve media? I am not sure. I can't imagine shooting and editing SD footage ever again. My phone (Samsung Galaxy S5) does 4k video! (Not good 4k but still). Kind of threw me off when I talked to him about it.

Noa Put · September 14th, 2015, 01:00 PM

I wouldn't use resolution as a salespitch, wedding clients don't care, it's actually the least important part of a weddingfilm to them.

Steve Burkett · September 14th, 2015, 02:55 PM

I think quality of video does matter in that they want it to look good. I agree, mention resolution and you've lost their interest. Say something like 4K gives you better picture quality and it carries some weight. You have to speak their language and not that of a Videographer.

Noa Put · September 14th, 2015, 03:33 PM

Just look at the best known weddingvideographers in the industry who charge 8K+, the ones I have seen don't mention anything about gear or resolution, they focus on story and emotion and if you are being honest, that is all that matters and any "full hd" camera today is sufficient to help visualize that. I recently saw a full film from Rob Adams where at one point there was an establishing shot of a house, the rooftiles which where small had dancing lines all over it caused by moire because he uses canon 5dII's yet his average prices are around 8K. His clients would not pay him more if he would advertise he delivered in 4K, its the way he manages to capture a lot of raw emotion from different often creative angles, it's how he stages some parts of the day to help him build a story and it's the way he puts it together in the edit. To enhance the feeling it is like film he uses full frame camera's, uses a cinema aspect ratio, a slider or glidecam shot here and there and that together with good audio is all you need to convince your clients. Not with telling them that you shoot 4K so their video looks even sharper, that is just what gets us videographers exited. :)

Peter Rush · September 14th, 2015, 03:52 PM

Spot on Noa - i agree wholehartedly

Steve Burkett · September 14th, 2015, 03:59 PM

Noa, you're responding as if I were to disagree with you. All those excellent Videographers charging more, would they earn less if they used GH4's and 4K instead of 5ds and HD, I doubt it. Yet I've secured 2 bookings this year by quoting 4K, admittedly this was down to the opinions from the Groom, but still, it worked for me. We all have to play our cards, and not all have the same cards. I play mine, others play theirs.

However, just to confirm, 4K plays no part in my advertisement apart from this one show where I had 4K videos and TV to demonstrate and even then the conversation was 90% on content. Give me some credit.

What we have here is a discussion on 4K, but don't assume this discussion sugests my entire marketing strategy. It's a small part and a very small part indeed. If I use 4K to advertise, it's mentioned only in regards to HQ frame grabs and superior picture quality. One line in a 45 minute discussion. Some clients are more interested and in such cases, I go into more detail.

Frankly I don't care what some video guy who charges 8K+ does; their clients are not my clients and whilst I applaud their business for its high fees, we live in different parts of the world and have different goals and type of clients.

I'm well aware that resolution plays little part in clients needs, but giving them reasons to not settle for a DVD and go for an HD delivery is for me part of doing my job. After all I want them to have the best possible copy of their video. Should they then settle for DVD, it will at least be an informed choice to the best of my ability to explain it.

Noa Put · September 14th, 2015, 04:19 PM

I didn't say you disagree with me, I"m only not convinced wedding clients find resolution or sharper more detailed images important enough to base their decision on that to hire a videographer. The most expensive videographers are the best example that clients are willing to pay a lot more for only "HD".

It is mainly us videographers that find 4K important, like myself, I find 4K very important for my workflow for it's crop ability.

Steve Burkett · September 14th, 2015, 04:42 PM

Ah but then what is now "only HD" once sat at a point where 4k currently sits. These discussions have been had before when debating the value of HD over SD. Are the clients of these high priced Wedding Videographers getting DVDs or some HD delivery. 5d mark iiis, which although somewhat diminished in recent years, were not so long ago considered the benchmark for great Wedding Videography. Even I looked forward to the day to own such a camera, struggling with my 60d. No doubt such Videographers carry a full range of Canons best lenses, so whilst image quality plays no part in their pitch, it sure plays a part in their videos that future clients see. Plus HD is a gimmick word no different to 4k.

Remember also we are not privy to their chats with clients, only their website. Mine makes no mention of 4k, but as a passing point in meetings, it can come up. Perhaps they're the same and in chats, the fact they use professional cameras and lenses and film in HD does get a mention.

Really, I agree story and content is important to clients, resolution and picture quality more important to us. I enjoy working with 4k and I'll do my bit to persuade clients to choose HD over SD, but its no selling point.

Roger Gunkel · September 14th, 2015, 05:43 PM

I have always maintained that content is king and is what sells the video together with style. But I do think that their is a danger as a videographer with getting too excited about the leaps in technology when we can clearly see a difference.

I think we all agree that shooting on 4k gives us the ability to crop the picture in various ways to give us much more flexibility and that dropping it down to HD still gives an overall improvement in picture quality. It also allows to screen grab to a very useable level. I don't though neccesarily agree that HD to 4k will be as big an improvement as SD to HD, simply because the higher the resolution, the less the difference is noticeable to the man in the street until you start comparing picture quality on much bigger screens. Sure, if you view HD on an 80" screen from 6ft away it will look nowhere near as sharp as viewing on the same screen in 4k because of the relative pixel size. Doing the same on a 40" screen will not be anywhere near as obvious to most viewers and certainly not as obvious as the difference between SD and HD on the same screen. Going up further to 8k will be totally irrelevant in the domestic viewing market in my opinion.

Manufacturers will force the hand of the public because they will simply stop producing HD tvs to sell their 4k tvs whether the public want it or not, it will cease to be an option. The same poor quality transmissions though will still be put out for the vast majority of broadcast TV for years to come, so the benefits that we can see will just not be available to most people in a normal domestic viewing situation for a long time apart from the occasion premium broadcast or pay TV.

Roger

Chris Harding · September 14th, 2015, 05:48 PM

Sometimes I wonder if potential and current clients pay any attention at all. My delivery is DVD sets, 1080 video and highlight on USB, photos on USB and then their own LCD video album with the highlight video preloaded.... I just contacted a client to let him know all the media was ready to be delivered and he said "Just drop the USB into my mail box" ...he cannot even remember what he is getting and was shown only a month ago when he did a late booking.

Yes 4K is important to us and I love it! I even get excited about the quality and sharpness that our new Panasonic's give us now ..it almost looks like 4K ... When I have a fully laden timeline and Sony Vegas drops to half resolution on the preview monitor, I am disappointment as I love the full res sharpness.

Where is all this going??? Yes we are passionate about our quality but the client, on average, couldn't give a toss! You COULD probably get away shooting SD footage and dumping onto DVD's and they would be quite happy so sadly Noa is right !! However I do agree that you WILL get a groom or two that will appreciate quality and resolution and can actually tell the difference between HD and 4K and does own a 4K TV but sadly most will not ..they are building a house, having babies and doing things most young couples do so DVD's are simply good enough for them!

Steve Burkett · September 14th, 2015, 09:14 PM

The problem is the vast majority of people are lazy with new technology. They prefer to stick with what they know. Back when I worked for the University, I recall the hassle trying to pursuade lecturers to give up on video cassette and use DVDs instead. The tantrums and arguments we had, then after a year or so, they loved the new format and were handing in videos to be copied to DVD.

Most coupes are the same, sticking by DVD as they're use to it. Some don't even realise the quality isn't HD. Roger says that HD to 4k isn't that big an upgrade, but perhaps we should look at it as SD to 4k as many haven't given HD any time of day. In fact some argue HD as a format never really worked as to the average viewer, the difference in quality wasnt significant to warrant any interest or upgrade.

Ultimately the future will decide on the demand for 4k. We can argue and speculate here to our hearts content, but none of us truely know what the state of play will be in say 5 years time. For me 4k is like fullframe, a look I enjoy working with but which the average client cares little about. Just as many care little whether I use sliders, jibs, gimbal or tripod to capture my shots, or if I use a fullframe, APS-C, 4/3s or 1" sensor. We all make choices in our gear that reflect our passion for video and ultimately it'll inform our style, which some clients may or may not take notice of.

I shall not be so daft as to make 4k a selling point of my service, but I won't totally ignore it either. If only to promote my Photo Album from video stills service as a paid extra. That said if I can educate some into the disadvantages of DVD, and increase interest for HD delivery, then I feel its only to their benefit. How many clients received their Wedding videos on video cassettes from say 2000-2004, perfectly happy then, but which now never get watched as they no longer have a video cassette player. I see it as part of our job as Professionals to monitor upcoming technology and anticipate new trends, regardless of whether clients currently demand it or not.

September 14th, 2015, 12:07 PM	#63
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! Had another wedding show yesterday, very busy and lots of brides. I broached the subject of 4k to quite a few couples and only one guy all day was aware of what it was and I was amazed that so many had never even heard of it. I explained the big improvement in picture quality and that was followed up by a comment from him about how good the quality was of the video we were running and was it 4k? I said it was just a DVD and he asked if it was a 4k DVD!!! I think we have a long way to go before people understand it, although as Steve says, showing them the difference may be of benefit. The only thing that bothers me about that is that they may then expect their wedding video to look equally as sharp, without understanding how much new equipment they will need to invest in to view it that way. I did speak to the only other video company there that surprisingly had only upgraded their cameras to HD this year. They were highly impressed with the fact that we have a pair of 4k cameras, whereas the potential clients were basically disinterested because of the lack of understanding. In future I will only mention it if asked although I will include it in the promotion for the benefit ofthose who understand it. Roger

September 14th, 2015, 12:41 PM	#64
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! A Wedding Video company that's only upgraded to HD; wow and even last year I was telling clients that no Professional Videographer would be working with SD only cameras when they broach me on HD. Even for SD delivery, HD cameras deliver better results, just as 4K delivers better HD. To put it into perspective, I filmed a Wedding last year late September, where I spoke to the Photographer about my camera and thought to impress him by saying it did 4K, only to learn the last company he worked with had 3 GH4's and were offering 4K packages. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised really. I don't expect clients to be impressed with 4K until they have 4K TV's and even then HD will suffice them. If I sell it to them at all, it is for the HQ video grabs and improved picture quality. Just say to them that 4K gives them a considerably better picture and thats all they need to hear. Of course it helps to show off some 4K, which I did at this show. You can't expect people to imagine a better picture from 4K, they have to see it.

September 14th, 2015, 01:00 PM	#66
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! I wouldn't use resolution as a salespitch, wedding clients don't care, it's actually the least important part of a weddingfilm to them.

September 14th, 2015, 02:55 PM	#67
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! I think quality of video does matter in that they want it to look good. I agree, mention resolution and you've lost their interest. Say something like 4K gives you better picture quality and it carries some weight. You have to speak their language and not that of a Videographer.

September 14th, 2015, 03:33 PM	#68
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! Just look at the best known weddingvideographers in the industry who charge 8K+, the ones I have seen don't mention anything about gear or resolution, they focus on story and emotion and if you are being honest, that is all that matters and any "full hd" camera today is sufficient to help visualize that. I recently saw a full film from Rob Adams where at one point there was an establishing shot of a house, the rooftiles which where small had dancing lines all over it caused by moire because he uses canon 5dII's yet his average prices are around 8K. His clients would not pay him more if he would advertise he delivered in 4K, its the way he manages to capture a lot of raw emotion from different often creative angles, it's how he stages some parts of the day to help him build a story and it's the way he puts it together in the edit. To enhance the feeling it is like film he uses full frame camera's, uses a cinema aspect ratio, a slider or glidecam shot here and there and that together with good audio is all you need to convince your clients. Not with telling them that you shoot 4K so their video looks even sharper, that is just what gets us videographers exited. :)

September 14th, 2015, 03:52 PM	#69
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! Spot on Noa - i agree wholehartedly

September 14th, 2015, 03:59 PM	#70
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! Noa, you're responding as if I were to disagree with you. All those excellent Videographers charging more, would they earn less if they used GH4's and 4K instead of 5ds and HD, I doubt it. Yet I've secured 2 bookings this year by quoting 4K, admittedly this was down to the opinions from the Groom, but still, it worked for me. We all have to play our cards, and not all have the same cards. I play mine, others play theirs. However, just to confirm, 4K plays no part in my advertisement apart from this one show where I had 4K videos and TV to demonstrate and even then the conversation was 90% on content. Give me some credit. What we have here is a discussion on 4K, but don't assume this discussion sugests my entire marketing strategy. It's a small part and a very small part indeed. If I use 4K to advertise, it's mentioned only in regards to HQ frame grabs and superior picture quality. One line in a 45 minute discussion. Some clients are more interested and in such cases, I go into more detail. Frankly I don't care what some video guy who charges 8K+ does; their clients are not my clients and whilst I applaud their business for its high fees, we live in different parts of the world and have different goals and type of clients. I'm well aware that resolution plays little part in clients needs, but giving them reasons to not settle for a DVD and go for an HD delivery is for me part of doing my job. After all I want them to have the best possible copy of their video. Should they then settle for DVD, it will at least be an informed choice to the best of my ability to explain it.

September 14th, 2015, 04:19 PM	#71
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! I didn't say you disagree with me, I"m only not convinced wedding clients find resolution or sharper more detailed images important enough to base their decision on that to hire a videographer. The most expensive videographers are the best example that clients are willing to pay a lot more for only "HD". It is mainly us videographers that find 4K important, like myself, I find 4K very important for my workflow for it's crop ability.

September 14th, 2015, 04:42 PM	#72
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! Ah but then what is now "only HD" once sat at a point where 4k currently sits. These discussions have been had before when debating the value of HD over SD. Are the clients of these high priced Wedding Videographers getting DVDs or some HD delivery. 5d mark iiis, which although somewhat diminished in recent years, were not so long ago considered the benchmark for great Wedding Videography. Even I looked forward to the day to own such a camera, struggling with my 60d. No doubt such Videographers carry a full range of Canons best lenses, so whilst image quality plays no part in their pitch, it sure plays a part in their videos that future clients see. Plus HD is a gimmick word no different to 4k. Remember also we are not privy to their chats with clients, only their website. Mine makes no mention of 4k, but as a passing point in meetings, it can come up. Perhaps they're the same and in chats, the fact they use professional cameras and lenses and film in HD does get a mention. Really, I agree story and content is important to clients, resolution and picture quality more important to us. I enjoy working with 4k and I'll do my bit to persuade clients to choose HD over SD, but its no selling point.

September 14th, 2015, 05:43 PM	#73
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! I have always maintained that content is king and is what sells the video together with style. But I do think that their is a danger as a videographer with getting too excited about the leaps in technology when we can clearly see a difference. I think we all agree that shooting on 4k gives us the ability to crop the picture in various ways to give us much more flexibility and that dropping it down to HD still gives an overall improvement in picture quality. It also allows to screen grab to a very useable level. I don't though neccesarily agree that HD to 4k will be as big an improvement as SD to HD, simply because the higher the resolution, the less the difference is noticeable to the man in the street until you start comparing picture quality on much bigger screens. Sure, if you view HD on an 80" screen from 6ft away it will look nowhere near as sharp as viewing on the same screen in 4k because of the relative pixel size. Doing the same on a 40" screen will not be anywhere near as obvious to most viewers and certainly not as obvious as the difference between SD and HD on the same screen. Going up further to 8k will be totally irrelevant in the domestic viewing market in my opinion. Manufacturers will force the hand of the public because they will simply stop producing HD tvs to sell their 4k tvs whether the public want it or not, it will cease to be an option. The same poor quality transmissions though will still be put out for the vast majority of broadcast TV for years to come, so the benefits that we can see will just not be available to most people in a normal domestic viewing situation for a long time apart from the occasion premium broadcast or pay TV. Roger

September 14th, 2015, 05:48 PM	#74
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! Sometimes I wonder if potential and current clients pay any attention at all. My delivery is DVD sets, 1080 video and highlight on USB, photos on USB and then their own LCD video album with the highlight video preloaded.... I just contacted a client to let him know all the media was ready to be delivered and he said "Just drop the USB into my mail box" ...he cannot even remember what he is getting and was shown only a month ago when he did a late booking. Yes 4K is important to us and I love it! I even get excited about the quality and sharpness that our new Panasonic's give us now ..it almost looks like 4K ... When I have a fully laden timeline and Sony Vegas drops to half resolution on the preview monitor, I am disappointment as I love the full res sharpness. Where is all this going??? Yes we are passionate about our quality but the client, on average, couldn't give a toss! You COULD probably get away shooting SD footage and dumping onto DVD's and they would be quite happy so sadly Noa is right !! However I do agree that you WILL get a groom or two that will appreciate quality and resolution and can actually tell the difference between HD and 4K and does own a 4K TV but sadly most will not ..they are building a house, having babies and doing things most young couples do so DVD's are simply good enough for them!

September 14th, 2015, 09:14 PM	#75
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: UDH Blu Ray Player is the future! The problem is the vast majority of people are lazy with new technology. They prefer to stick with what they know. Back when I worked for the University, I recall the hassle trying to pursuade lecturers to give up on video cassette and use DVDs instead. The tantrums and arguments we had, then after a year or so, they loved the new format and were handing in videos to be copied to DVD. Most coupes are the same, sticking by DVD as they're use to it. Some don't even realise the quality isn't HD. Roger says that HD to 4k isn't that big an upgrade, but perhaps we should look at it as SD to 4k as many haven't given HD any time of day. In fact some argue HD as a format never really worked as to the average viewer, the difference in quality wasnt significant to warrant any interest or upgrade. Ultimately the future will decide on the demand for 4k. We can argue and speculate here to our hearts content, but none of us truely know what the state of play will be in say 5 years time. For me 4k is like fullframe, a look I enjoy working with but which the average client cares little about. Just as many care little whether I use sliders, jibs, gimbal or tripod to capture my shots, or if I use a fullframe, APS-C, 4/3s or 1" sensor. We all make choices in our gear that reflect our passion for video and ultimately it'll inform our style, which some clients may or may not take notice of. I shall not be so daft as to make 4k a selling point of my service, but I won't totally ignore it either. If only to promote my Photo Album from video stills service as a paid extra. That said if I can educate some into the disadvantages of DVD, and increase interest for HD delivery, then I feel its only to their benefit. How many clients received their Wedding videos on video cassettes from say 2000-2004, perfectly happy then, but which now never get watched as they no longer have a video cassette player. I see it as part of our job as Professionals to monitor upcoming technology and anticipate new trends, regardless of whether clients currently demand it or not.