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Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old December 29th, 2005, 12:19 PM   #16
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lol, i just read through what i wrote and realized that if he asked an "avid vs. fcp vs. vegas vs. premiere" question it would result in a heated battle as well. ;-P

i wonder if carpenters ever argue philips vs. flathead?
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Old December 29th, 2005, 01:26 PM   #17
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I'm actually interested in a AVID vs PREMIERE vs FCP vs VEGAS thread... I know most people will say: use what you feel good with!, but still, could be interesting, just to hear some opinions...
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Old December 29th, 2005, 02:05 PM   #18
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ah, the platform wars.

i disagree with the above quote. if you look at actual it costs in the business world, even factoring in the number of pc's vs. number of macs on the same network, you'd see that pc's actually do have a higher cost with maintenance. nt was rock solid back when it was called windows 2000 (a near perfect os at the time). a good windows user can keep his system clean by routinely running anti-virus software, keeping files out of their desktop to not bog down the system and defragging every once in awhile... things i don't ever have to worry about... i just work. as a small business owner with no it staff, even the slightest risk of virus infection or data loss can set me back big. i don't want to take that risk if there's an alternative.

Make no mistake about it- there is no "war". Just setting the record straight about some rather blind blanket statements you made. As I said- the only factor that might "cost" more to upkeep is virus and spyware related issues. In reality: 1) Your workhorse machine shouldn't even be connected to the net and 2) If you practice basic precautions you can use the internet and not worry about spyware or viruses. I haven't had a virus since I built my first XP machine ever. Overrode cookie handling and 99.9% of spyware ceased.
Also don't subscribe to the generalized ignorance that Macs cannot contract viruses. That, while less common, is not an impossibility.



where macs win big for me is in the things that i don't have time to futz with on a pc:
ease of networking. out of the box, i can have a new mac on my network without any setup. file sharing in 2 button presses. windows is great until something that works all the time suddenly stops working and you have no idea where to look (prefs? registry? app conflict? dma conflict? reboot? virus? hardware failure?).

Sounds to me like you had some negative experiences with the PC platform, coupled with the lack of knowledge to handle standard trouble shooting. Networking/File Sharing is cake, I question why you use that as an example.


also, there's workflow related system tools like automator. no more repetitive tasks, ever. i just make a batch for everything: from resizing images and running photoshop actions on them to setting up project files on a new client drive. system wide instantaneous search that makes my job much easier. if i am looking for candice's entourage i just search for "candice" and it brings up EVERYTHING on her, from photos to text files to email. then there's the small things that i appreciate like a built-in dictionary (ctrl+cmd+d and highlighting a word brings up a contextual dictionary, how cool is that?) and system-wide spell checking so i never have to look like a moron to any of my clients ever again. in fact, i did not realize how horrible a speller i was until mac os x. glen, if windows had it you'd see that you misspelled "maintenance" and "flexibility". ;-P
Now your just being silly. Your comprehension of what I wrote in my original reply is questionable. I said I DO prefer OS X over XP, however in regards to strictly running a Wedding Videography Business the NLE/Workflow are the core of what's important. PS Your "built-in dictionary" sounds pretty nifty, apparently it doesn't have the ability to fix capitalization errors.

if you ask me, the real misconception is that macs are more expensive, but if you actually did a cost comparison, part by part, macs come out pretty even.
That's one statement I'd have to "somewhat" agree on. In regards to the higher end (ie Quad vs Dual Xenons) the Mac actually turns out to be a bargain. However when comparing lower end and mid-range towers you can get a lot more for your money in the PC realm. For $1,200 I got a Dual Core righ with a gig of ram, and liquid cooling. Apple doesn't even have a desktop that inexpensive. In that price range you'd have to go with an i-Mac that touts a single 1.9ghz processor that a Dual 3.0ghz would run circles round in any benchmark you can fathom.
The price advantage of higher end desktops ends there with the Mac...lower end desktops and laptops are overpriced and underpowered. A top of the line PC laptop can run circles around a top of the line Powerbook.


me? i use both pc's and macs. i have a ridiculously high end dual core boxx pc at my day job as a 3d animator, and i have 8 macs in my videography business. i work well in both environments, but since i work on large data files when animating, i have to defrag my machine after every project. i like to use my desktop like i use my real-world desktop, but doing so on windows bogs down the system (especially since i work in large files). i also found that even though boxx is a respected high-end pc manufacturer, some of the components they use are cheap, like their frontside usb and firewire connectors that routinely fail and need replacement. this is all fine and well. we have a solid it staff and they fix all my problems quickly. what if this happened at home while i'm capturing video!?
I know very little about Boxx systems but the computer is only as reliable as the most unreliable part. That goes for Macs as well.

at home, i just bought a g5 quad for my business, and i'm very impressed. it kills my dual 1.8 g5.

mac os x tiger checks for permissions errors on-bootup, and permissions issues are no-brainers compared to registry errors and the like. everything is where it should logically be, and you'll never have to use regedit or run adaware.

just note that you will have to factor in the cost of additional ram, as the amount it comes with is not enough to run fcp well.

glen is right about this, however: it doesn't matter how stable or elegant the os is if you don't like the nle app.

go to an apple store and check out fcp. then go find someone who has vegas or avid or premiere pro and try those out. that's what you really should be asking. asking pc or mac just summons a flame war. ;-P

That's great I'm glad you like your quad and Macs are working out for you in your business. You are not alone many of my close videographer friends are hard-core Mac'heads as well. The error you made related to the highly subjective nature of your statements. All the while the original poster wanted to know if he could get away with spending less money on a Dual Core PC machine rather than shelling out $1500 more for the Mac. Which the obvious answer is...YES.

Regarding "summoning a flame war"...no, that will not summon a flame war as this sort of activity is strictly prohibited on DVinfo. We can discuss the differences and why we choose the platform we work on without "flaming".
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Old December 29th, 2005, 02:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathieu Ghekiere
I'm actually interested in a AVID vs PREMIERE vs FCP vs VEGAS thread... I know most people will say: use what you feel good with!, but still, could be interesting, just to hear some opinions...
Honestly it's as pointless as arguing what #2 pencil is best to write your grocery list with. They all are tools that allow us to work creatively. When you strip it all down a cut is a cut and a dissolve is still a dissolve.

It's the content you create with your NLE that matters rather than "opinions" on which is "better". Trust me it's a dead-end.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 03:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Elliott
... all the stuff we both said that's too lengthy to quote...
hey glen. re: flame war. agreed. no wars here... just good conversation. we put a lot of money into our setups, so it's a very personal subject.

re: capitalization and spelling. hahaha! touché. you are right. i was being silly. y'know, funny? my bad if it was inappropriate. i don't capitalize informal correspondence. been doing it since college. it lets me recognize important and professional emails and docs at a glance. it also lets my colleagues differentiate between professional emails and tongue-in-cheek remarks without having to wonder "is he serious or is he kidding?"... anyway, whatever.

re: networking. i brought it up because windows networking is subpar to os x. plain and simple. rendezvous vs. windows' upnp? no comparison. bluetooth support? cleaner implementation on os x. solid gigabit ethernet cards in every powermac. target disk mode... does windows even do that? windows network neighborhood via samba: why is it so spotty? why does a large file transfer sometimes hang at "preparing to copy files"? i can connect multiple macs on a network with 2 button presses and cluster render with fcp. i don't know if there is a windows equivalent. why do you think microsoft is dumping upnp for windows media connect if windows networking is so great? and even then, you won't see it outside of an xbox 360 until windows vista comes out (q4 2006 maybe?). and since os x is bsd at the core, i have a full featured terminal shell at hand for a cli, which is imho much better at networking tasks than dos shell (vi, emacs, pico, etc.). iis vs. apache? i was a web developer for 7 years, so i know a little bit about networking. just a little. troubleshooting? i was a qa supervisor at one time as well. i don't want to put on those hats in my home business.

re: "the generalized ignorance that macs cannot contract viruses". as of today, there are no known os x viruses at present. zero. this is a fact (source: lawrence berkeley national laboratory). there have been security holes, however, which mostly affect the apache webserver (turned off by default on mac os x). sure, a mac os x virus might come out someday, but as of now, macs cannot contract any virii.

re: "a top of the line pc laptop can run circles around a top of the line powerbook". i wouldn't go as far to say they get beat by any order of magnitude, but it's true that they are currently underpowered because of ibm's inability to produce a low power mobile g5. that said, my 1.67ghz powerbook g4 17" is more than adequate for editing, menu creation and making builds. i'd wait until the intel powerbooks come out in 2006 if i were in the market, though.

re: "your workhorse machine should not even be connected to the net", i blame microsoft for that line of thinking. it's a sad thing, really.

bottom line: could you get away with spending $1500 less on a pc setup? sure. factor in another computer for email and internet use and the possibility that whatever you get now may not be compatible with vista when (if?) it comes out late 2006.

could you get a mac system for $1500 less? sure! you could get a dual 1.8 g5 for about $1500 less than the quad and be just as well off. a quick check at ebay shows one on "buy it now" for $1459.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 04:58 AM   #21
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irrespective of teh build or operating system, it al comes does to HOW YOU EDIT AND THE TOOL YOU CHOOSE TO EDIT WITH...

very simple concept..
systems come and go, however NLEs and their structures usually have their own nuances which you either love or hate, but in the end, its these differentials which make or break an editors workflow.
Its a decision as to which NLE you choose AS A TOOL...

Ive seen Vegas make Avid and FCP workflow look like garbage, ive seen composites in after effects which make combustion and motion look like crap, ive seen "new additions" to FCP which Vegas has had implemented for the last 3 years (like looping video for one example) Ive seen Prem Pro with a 4 yr old Matrox RTX100 run rings around Avid with Mojo, Ive seen FCP HD workflow poo on an AVid DNA system.. mind u the Mac was a G5 on steroids with 8GB ram and cost somethign like 30k, but the fact that it did it remains..

So in the end, it DOESNT MATTER what OS you use... EVERYTHING is manageable.. From virii to networking to upgrade options and pretty much anythign else u can think of..
Ive been using Windows based NLEs for about 7 years now from the ol pinnacle cards through to the Some dodgy noname analogue capture card before digital cameras were even around.. ), and have NEVER had a problem save from HW issues (ie wear an tear) which ive been able to manage myself. To blanketly say that Windows is inferior to MacOS is irresponsible and illinformed.
They each have their positives and negatives. How you DEAL with those is another thread altogether...

There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG....
There is NO THIS IS BETTER THAN THAT...
Each tool does the JOB. They ALL EDIT...
HOW they edit may be differnt, but there will be similarities, BUT all tis remains up to your personal taste and what YOU LIKE within YOUR TOOL of choice..
If you really want to learn and test the waters, go out and hire a PC/MAC machine and play with EVERYTHING you an get your hands on.

THEN you can at least make an informed decision as to which NLE is right for you..

Im sick of the bullshit "mac is better than PC and vice versa argument coz it doesnt mean shit in the real world.
If i can pump out a job with no hassles, no crashes, no crap and KNOW what my end results will be when i deliver the product in the time i have promised my clients, then thats all that matters.

I can drive a Merc or I can drive a BMW, in the end they get me to where i need to go, they drive a lil differently and feel different, One may handle around the bends better than the other, while one may drift a lil when the road is a lil wet and scary, one might have a flashier stereo system, while the other has afew more airbags for those times of need... but in the end they each have 4 wheels, an engine that works and most importantly I AM THE DRIVER WHOS COMFORTABLE BEHIND THE WHEEL....
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Old December 30th, 2005, 08:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson
There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG....
There is NO THIS IS BETTER THAN THAT...
Each tool does the JOB. They ALL EDIT...

I can agree with the gist of what you're saying Peter EXCEPT if there are inherent design flaws within an NLE.

The original poster mentioned the Z1U and so if he's decided to go HD, I would avoid Premier Pro which rated POOR is HD downsampling by a very reputable publication ...EventDV. Their HD downsampling tests resulted in "fuzzy" video and even they concluded it could be a fundamental flaw in this NLE and passed the test results to Adobe - to-date it hasn't been fixed.

If he wants to run his camera in SD mode then he's o.k. but if his motivation for getting an HD camera is to capture & edit in HD then downconvert in the NLE then PP may not be the way to go -all other things may be equal.

here's the article (see pg 2): Battle of the Software NLEs, Part 2: Editing HDV

http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/Read...rticleID=10446

Last edited by Craig Terott; December 30th, 2005 at 03:22 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 11:18 AM   #23
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yup you guys are right. i think i went off on a tangent with the os thing, but the gist of my post is that you can get a mac system for the same price as the pc system, so it's not about the pc being cheaper.

you can get a $499 mac mini and edit hd on imoviehd... though i don't recommend it if you want to start a business. basically, if you want to go mac, blowing $3k on the quad is not your only option. i started with a 933 g4 tower and it's still one of our editing machines.

now that both systems are equal in price, it boils down to your choice of NLE and the strengths and weaknesses of the OS that runs them. and for avid users, it's mac os x vs. windows.

unfortunately, i don't think we will be able to have an unbiased discussion about nles, since we are all pretty much married to one. i've used avid, media 100 and premiere... but i haven't used them in ages since i fell in love with fcp. i'm pretty sure everyone else has had a similar experience leading them to their nle of choice.
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