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Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old April 6th, 2006, 10:27 AM   #1
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Anyone do photography and videography for weddings?

Anyone do photography and videography for weddings? I need a little direction.
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Old April 6th, 2006, 11:02 AM   #2
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yeah get out of video asap...

i might seem bitter, but heres the deal..
brides are selfish, they shoud be, but they shoudl also be understanding of the fact that they are NOT the only customer you deal with.
Brides are ignorant. Some arrogant, but ignorance is the killer. They dont know how much work is involved and the only time they appreciate the work u do is actually when they recieve the finished product. Ok, thats natural right.. why then must video be second best to photogrpahy??

I SWEAR on my childs grave that 99% of weddings ive shot, the photographer has been over my shoulder shooting over me. Ok cool.. but why the Fungoolo is he being paid 3 times what im being paid? IM carrying 15k worth of gear as i shoot.. hes carrying 5k.. i spend 80hours on a longform edit. he spends 20 hours on 500 photos..
he gets 6k, i get 2k..
Wheres the friggin logic??
Maybe i shoudl have stayed with corporate..

Oh then theres the fact that most brides dont bother with reading contracts.. then are shocked to find that they cant perform ye' ol' "im back from my honeymoon, wheres my dvd"
Hell i cant help it if my work is in demand... i work 20hours a friggin day.... what do they think im doing (apart from yappin away on this forum... )
I havent had a day off in 6 years... i took 6 weeks off over Xmas and new year and the shit hit the fan...

wedding clients ARE demanding, and im happy to service them so long as they understanding exactly how much work is involved. It jsut seems that people use their ignorance as an excuse to treat others like shit and im sick of it.
Obviously they hire you for a reason. Obviously theyre paying premium prices coz they want a good product, but they seem to forget this when its time to play the waiting game.

ok tips/directions..

sorry bout the rant. but im REALLY feeling it tonight..

Tips??
be carful. Have an airtight contract and DO NOT budge from it.
Offer a combo package plus individual packages as you dont want to sell urself short.. if they like ur fotos, but think ur video is cheesy (i dunno ur videos dude, im jsut using an example here) what was i saying.. oh if they like ur fotos but think ir video is cheesy theyll hire u to do the fotos.. or vice versa.. but if u only offer the combo, then ur stuffed
Umm.. be careful with what u say
Never overpromise. I never have an never will
If u thnk itll take 4 weeks to do a full edit, tell them 8 weeks.. give urself a buffer and room to breathe.
Dont take on more than u can handle.

Theres heaps more but above all else, dont lose the love for what u do.

Right now, ive got some clients giving me a hard time simply becuase theres not much going on in their lives. Fact remains these clients know the deal and they know that during feb and march, im shootin at least 6 weddings each month. That includes consultations, meeting, and planning, It means maintenance, and stock requisitionsing. It means account management and follow up. It means shooting preshoots and interviews and it means scanning a shitload of pictures to use for their slideshows.

Now where one finds the time to edit in that peak shooting time is anyone guess, but the clients need to understand that during that time, its peak season, so delivery will be determined by what is happening during that time.

Dont lose sight of reality and dont burn yourself out

Dont do what i did, i now regret gettin in this game.
At the end of the day, people dont give a shit about what u did for them, what extras u threw in, how you handled yourself on the day.They dont care what u did to make their day easier for them, even though you went 16hours without taking a piss or getting a piece of bread in your mouth, they dont care how good your work is, how much work is involved in your editing, or what you can do that no other company can, it doesnt mean shit to them. They dont care about anything else except 2 things.

How much they paid and when theyre gonna get it.

Our market here is different from the US market, as theirs has an appreciative element of respect for the work and whats involved. They know that premium products cost money. Here they dont care.. no seriously.. they really dont.. on the outset they SEEM like it matters, but it doesnt. Irresepctive of the class, race or creed of the couple, they all seem to have these 2 fundamental elements in mind

I have to say that i NOW understand why so many producers no longer have their hearts in their work and i certainly dont blame them...
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Old April 6th, 2006, 11:19 AM   #3
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Steven: what do you need to know? Buy two digital SLR bodies and some decent lenses and accessories, a stack of flash memory cards and a current copy of Photoshop, and take a couple of portait photography classes if you're not already familiar with the basics for that. Then do photography only for a couple of weddings to get the hang of it, start offering combined photo/video services using one or more assistants to help you pull it off, and watch your revenue double for an extra 50% or so effort. Better yet, buy HD video cameras so you can make usable prints from video if you miss a key shot on the still cameras, and now you've got something the photographers can't match...about half a million images of a typical wedding.

P.S. Start soon before the photographers all buy video cameras and put us out of business.
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Old April 6th, 2006, 11:41 AM   #4
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Hey Peter,

hehe, I'll try and not become discouraged from your post. I know you are frustrated and have plenty of right to be. I'm sure you do video because you enjoy it. My hope is that you figure out how to be happy in it. If not with the talents that you have dude, you could make money doing something else. Either way, I hope you figure it out. If not, move to the US and we'll go in to business. lol.
I say all this with both talents and a business that pales in comparison to you.
I was just asking a simple question to get ideas on what is involved. I really have no desire to do photography and was just asking in case someone wanted me to do both. I really enjoy videography much more, it's fun to me, and it passifies my ADHD in a larger way.

Steven Davis
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Old April 6th, 2006, 01:44 PM   #5
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dude, dont ever be disocuraged.. nto by ANYONE.. not from clients or morons u come across on the net.. lol

What Kevins says though hits the nail on the head...

Im looking at getting into stills and im already shooting for afew photogs i hooked up with through my video work. Doing it this way gives u alot of exposure (pardon teh pun) to the environemtns through a photogs eye.
Also youll notice teh difference in teh way people treatand respond to you..

Look above all else, be sure that you njoi what u do.

Im upset coz i had a client go off at me coz shes had a bad run. Her photog lost 4 rolls of film, her dress got burnt at teh drycleaners, she got some form of cancer or somesuch thing, they got robbed on their honeymoon and her ring was a fake... plus afew other things which i cant rememebr now..

thng is her video is perfect.. the only issue is that shes waited 6 months for it.. BUT even though theres nofn wrong with it, it dont mean anything coz of all this negativity surrounding her.. so she passes it back onto me..
Its not pleasant let me tell u..

either way dude, follow your dreams, but always look where your stepping coz u dont wana fall off a cliff while u chase that cloud :)

Lifes good people suck. I wish i was a cat... I guess its something to get used to..

BTW, i appreciate your comments dude. More than u know... cheers and beers all round..
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Old April 6th, 2006, 03:10 PM   #6
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wow peter....i didn;t think of how different folks are in your region. here is los angeles, our clients really give us high regards and not just by the work alone, 50% of the time is because of "who" we are as people and how we treated them as clients. we wouldn't have it any other way. if we detect "non-fitting" clients meaning our personalities may clash, we simply pass on producing their wedding video. its not worth it to us to have clients we don't feel we would mesh well with.

i know many photographers will argue that they have the same workload as the videographers but i seriously doubt that one.

wedding videographers who produce a quality product need to increase their rates and stop low balling....doing weddings for 1k, you get the picture. the fact that there are more "part timers" than full time videographers has a huge reflection on pricing imo, i think they feel no need to charge what the product is worth since they really dont "need" the money as they have a real job and work out there house part time. this discussion can go on and on but these are just a few thoughts of mine.

our company does not deal with the low budget bride.....we get inquiries that ask....can you do it for this or that price but we wont budge.....we do not negotiate our rates and we don't want to work with low budget clients.....its not who we are or what we do.

I have shot some weddings (photography).....it was ok, but to be honest, I love shooting camera and editing(motion, audio), for me.....I wouldn't want to be a photographer or offer it as a service no matter what the rate difference.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson
yeah get out of video asap...

i might seem bitter, but heres the deal..
brides are selfish, they shoud be, but they shoudl also be understanding of the fact that they are NOT the only customer you deal with.
Brides are ignorant. Some arrogant, but ignorance is the killer. They dont know how much work is involved and the only time they appreciate the work u do is actually when they recieve the finished product. Ok, thats natural right.. why then must video be second best to photogrpahy??

I SWEAR on my childs grave that 99% of weddings ive shot, the photographer has been over my shoulder shooting over me. Ok cool.. but why the Fungoolo is he being paid 3 times what im being paid? IM carrying 15k worth of gear as i shoot.. hes carrying 5k.. i spend 80hours on a longform edit. he spends 20 hours on 500 photos..
he gets 6k, i get 2k..
Wheres the friggin logic??
Maybe i shoudl have stayed with corporate..

Oh then theres the fact that most brides dont bother with reading contracts.. then are shocked to find that they cant perform ye' ol' "im back from my honeymoon, wheres my dvd"
Hell i cant help it if my work is in demand... i work 20hours a friggin day.... what do they think im doing (apart from yappin away on this forum... )
I havent had a day off in 6 years... i took 6 weeks off over Xmas and new year and the shit hit the fan...

wedding clients ARE demanding, and im happy to service them so long as they understanding exactly how much work is involved. It jsut seems that people use their ignorance as an excuse to treat others like shit and im sick of it.
Obviously they hire you for a reason. Obviously theyre paying premium prices coz they want a good product, but they seem to forget this when its time to play the waiting game.

ok tips/directions..

sorry bout the rant. but im REALLY feeling it tonight..

Tips??
be carful. Have an airtight contract and DO NOT budge from it.
Offer a combo package plus individual packages as you dont want to sell urself short.. if they like ur fotos, but think ur video is cheesy (i dunno ur videos dude, im jsut using an example here) what was i saying.. oh if they like ur fotos but think ir video is cheesy theyll hire u to do the fotos.. or vice versa.. but if u only offer the combo, then ur stuffed
Umm.. be careful with what u say
Never overpromise. I never have an never will
If u thnk itll take 4 weeks to do a full edit, tell them 8 weeks.. give urself a buffer and room to breathe.
Dont take on more than u can handle.

Theres heaps more but above all else, dont lose the love for what u do.

Right now, ive got some clients giving me a hard time simply becuase theres not much going on in their lives. Fact remains these clients know the deal and they know that during feb and march, im shootin at least 6 weddings each month. That includes consultations, meeting, and planning, It means maintenance, and stock requisitionsing. It means account management and follow up. It means shooting preshoots and interviews and it means scanning a shitload of pictures to use for their slideshows.

Now where one finds the time to edit in that peak shooting time is anyone guess, but the clients need to understand that during that time, its peak season, so delivery will be determined by what is happening during that time.

Dont lose sight of reality and dont burn yourself out

Dont do what i did, i now regret gettin in this game.
At the end of the day, people dont give a shit about what u did for them, what extras u threw in, how you handled yourself on the day.They dont care what u did to make their day easier for them, even though you went 16hours without taking a piss or getting a piece of bread in your mouth, they dont care how good your work is, how much work is involved in your editing, or what you can do that no other company can, it doesnt mean shit to them. They dont care about anything else except 2 things.

How much they paid and when theyre gonna get it.

Our market here is different from the US market, as theirs has an appreciative element of respect for the work and whats involved. They know that premium products cost money. Here they dont care.. no seriously.. they really dont.. on the outset they SEEM like it matters, but it doesnt. Irresepctive of the class, race or creed of the couple, they all seem to have these 2 fundamental elements in mind

I have to say that i NOW understand why so many producers no longer have their hearts in their work and i certainly dont blame them...
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Old April 6th, 2006, 04:11 PM   #7
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Video & Photo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Allen Rosenberger
I have shot some weddings (photography).....it was ok, but to be honest, I love shooting camera and editing (motion, audio), for me.....I wouldn't want to be a photographer or offer it as a service no matter what the rate difference.
This is where I am. I just plain love the editing. Sitting in front of the time line with 30 GB of source footage and idea. That is what I like to do. I also love showing up and finding the parts of the "average wedding" that are unique or different. For example, for the last wedding, the portraits were shot standing on snow. That created some neat effects. The decorations were all Christmas themed so I had chances to shoot objects that won't be in your average wedding. I wasn't using a high quality camera (because I don't have one yet) but that didn't hold back my footage (too much).

I will say that Video & Photo is a killer sales pitch (to me at least). I have not sold a package with my photographer included. The brides all had that taken care of before the talked to me about video. Eventually someone will get the idea that a combination package is more time efficient for them, eliminates yet another vendor from the complicated picture, and costs less because it economizes our time.

jason
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Old April 6th, 2006, 06:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Allen Rosenberger
i know many photographers will argue that they have the same workload as the videographers but i seriously doubt that one.
It depends what they do and how they do it, but all things considered it's hard to make a case that photography is as much work as video. And even if it was, wedding photographers on average get paid twice as much as videographers (according to one recent set of stats), but they sure as heck aren't doing twice as much work.
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Old April 8th, 2006, 06:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Allen Rosenberger
i know many photographers will argue that they have the same workload as the videographers but i seriously doubt that one.
If that ain't the truth. If, for nothing else, that videographers have to also worry about AUDIO which, to me, is as equally important as video. Photographers don't have to deal with that. All other things, yeah, are equal but not audio.

I'm fortunate that my wife is the photographer so we can offer a package deal. Before I dragged her, kicking and screaming, along with me to a wedding, I dealt with some of the most annoying, arrogant photographers I could imagine. Talk about prima donnas!

But, with Kim along, we understand what our requirements are and she makes a great assistant to me, as I do for her. I won't do a wedding without her now. That might hurt us overall but, since this is a "paying hobby" for us, it's okay.

I think you'd be stretching yourself pretty thin, Steve, if you decided to do both. Being a videographer OR a photographer is stressful enough. There's just too many variables in either scenario to go wrong and you compound it by trying to do both at the same time.
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Old April 9th, 2006, 09:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Allen Rosenberger
wow peter....i didn;t think of how different folks are in your region. here is los angeles, our clients really give us high regards and not just by the work alone, 50% of the time is because of "who" we are as people and how we treated them as clients. we wouldn't have it any other way. if we detect "non-fitting" clients meaning our personalities may clash, we simply pass on producing their wedding video. its not worth it to us to have clients we don't feel we would mesh well with.

i know many photographers will argue that they have the same workload as the videographers but i seriously doubt that one.

wedding videographers who produce a quality product need to increase their rates and stop low balling....doing weddings for 1k, you get the picture. the fact that there are more "part timers" than full time videographers has a huge reflection on pricing imo, i think they feel no need to charge what the product is worth since they really dont "need" the money as they have a real job and work out there house part time. this discussion can go on and on but these are just a few thoughts of mine.

our company does not deal with the low budget bride.....we get inquiries that ask....can you do it for this or that price but we wont budge.....we do not negotiate our rates and we don't want to work with low budget clients.....its not who we are or what we do.

I have shot some weddings (photography).....it was ok, but to be honest, I love shooting camera and editing(motion, audio), for me.....I wouldn't want to be a photographer or offer it as a service no matter what the rate difference.
Yeha dude,
down here its all about the $$ first.. then they go for quality...
Recently the trend here for "higher end" videographers is to offer teh same prices they always did, but to speed up delivery, theyve gotten rid of the longform edits.
Im lookng at doing that simply because i cant keep up.

Her ein aus though, people dont read teh fineprint.. in my contract I clearly state approximations between 4 to 8 months excluding peak seasonal trends.
Ive had the works, from people threatening legal action through to people going to Dept of Fair trading, simply becuase THEY took 6 months to get the music to me, and without music i cant do anything to start the work anyway, so teh tapes sit here... even though i send them reminders, they still ahve the audacity to compalin about delays... its funny i have a client who sent me a CD 3 months after the wedding... she didnt list what songs she wanted, after numerous calls and emails, nothing nada zilch... i did a highlights coz they were the only 2 tracks i needed, but there was like another 150 tracks on the cd... even after printing the list and mailing it to them (this is before XMAS) they stil havent gotten back to me.. and these people are the ones who complain teh most..

So what ive had to do was tighten my contract up to a point where the client pretty much has no right to complain if they dont get their shit together...
I mean its like building a house.. u go out u build a house for a customer.. the house needs carpet.. so the customer needs to tell u what colour and style.. but theyre taking their time about it.. so as your running a business, u start work on another house until they decide.. U contact them as best u can, and then they get back to u with the style..
Now ask yourself this question.. does the customer have a right to complain about delays and should they expect results in a matter of days, or should i just use myu deiscretion, finish the job then deliver it.. then REDO the job when theyre decide they didnt like that choice in music...

THIS is the problem here. half the clients dont get back to you and the other half hound u like rabid dogs.. hell i had one bride that called me 3 days after her wedding, and a week before her wedding i told her i wouldnt even get to review the footage fora t least 8 weeks after the wedding itself..
People have absolutely NO CLUE how much work is involved and the stigma here in aus is all negative.
The point is that these people complain about delays in getting their finished work, but i bet $1000 that they DONT mention the fact that THEY took 6 months to get the music to me...
and THis one sided stoytelling is whats ruining the industry..

so now, all i can do is protect my business by nailing my contract to be so finite that after teh wedding date, teh client has absolutely no reason to complain. I now state that editing wont start until music is recieved, i also mention that as we take notes during our meetings, these notes are used during editing, so if a client changes their mind AFTER the itinirary meeting (i meet with my clients twice before i shoot) then tough.. if they want somethign specific, tell me before shooting, or u can forget it...

Theres too much to lose to let one or two idiot customers ruin my business.. no shit, ive got one girl whos been nice as pie to me and its taken her 7 months to get her music to me..
Then she tells me shes gone to Dept Fair Trading with a complaint about the delay...
This is the mentality...

either way, im changing my business structure and wont be dealing with this crap anymore and teh newer cleints im already getting know whats invovled down to a T...

With Lowballers, the problem here in aus is that there are too many... even legit business' which have been in the game for decades charge stupidly cheap rates jsut to get the job.

The "higher end" studios dont do longform for less than $1000 on top of teh basic shortform edit... this is ok, but its getting those clients which is an issue. Me, im in the middle when it comes to wedding prices, simply becuase not only do i have to compete but i have loads of corporate work.
Id love to only focus on Corp, but thats not a reality here.
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Old April 15th, 2006, 11:33 AM   #11
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I did the opposite, have always been a photographer and now have added Video. I went into Video because of the poor videographers in my area. Yes there are many good ones, but there are so many terrible ones as well.

We have one guy charging 1,500 for the wedding and his work looks like my Aunt Mindy's work. I knew I could do better than him straight out of the box.

Wedding photography is really easy, but it is like being a really good videographer, it will take years. There are just so many nuances to learn, just like Video.

I spend a lot of time editing photography, doing well over a 1,000 images per wedding keeps me busy, I always create a proshow gold slide show, and edit every photo that goes into it. I am gettng faster and better at editing Video, it still takes me a long time. I am on a two week turn over, if I have to work 80 hours a week so be it, my customers always receive everything in two weeks. It is a money back promise, and I have never given back any money.

I have to give myself deadlines or I just won't do it.

Bill
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Old April 30th, 2006, 01:48 PM   #12
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Wow ha ha. Peter that is so true.
Don't worry there are days when i go off worse than you :P

I started assisting my dad in photography when I was 10 years old (hauling equipment, lightling, loading film magazines etc) - starting shooting video when I turned 18 and been doing it now for 12 years. We do both services today. So ya - about 20 years in the biz. I also work btw - I couldn't do wedding full time - I'd go bezerk.

Weddings are just plain crazy. The wedding day - Emotions are up - people are frustrated because they are getting late - or because somebody hasn't arrived, the weather is bad, they didn't sleep, my damn video light is too bright - whatever. They are happy because they are getting married and crying becuase they are remember the good times, family is near - and are excited about their new life - and worried about how the rest of the day. After the wedding they are now living a new life - probably all tense since their life has changed and worst of all they have no money left or are going to paying off their wedding expenese for years.

Actually i find this last point is usually the cause of most issues. Wedding are a huge expense and that adds a lot of tension before and after the wedding.

I've shot a few weddings for free (family) - would you believe they haven't come to pick them up till today after years - they are like no worries man - we'll come man - just busy

You get caught in the middle of the the chaos. After seeing so much of it - I can almost take anything life throws at me - you become de-sensitized.

So steven - Just take it for what it is. You enjoy technology so buy that gear - shoot the wedding - deliver it - and just ignore the emotions - know that its gone. Don' think there are not going to be bad days. Most will be ok - some will will be great.

Your only tension should be ensuring you are able to capture the event 'reasonably'. Exercise due care. Take an extra cam, have double checked your gear with sufficient backup - use 2 alarm clocks so that you get up on time - it's pretty bad if you wake up when the ceremony is about to start.
Basically be on time, do a reasonable job, and complete the video in a reasonable time frame and you'll be good.

We've probably captured over 1200 weddings/events by now. Do people still try and piss me off - yup. Is the scene just like Peter described - oh ya - pretty much. Do I care - well a lot less - maybe another 5 years and i'll be ok :)

Best of luck on your endeavour
Paul
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Old May 10th, 2006, 12:55 PM   #13
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I do stills to incorporate with my video...

Got tired of begging for permission to use stills from the mostly overpaid photogs so I picked up a digital slr just to get shots to use with my video montages. It makes for much better quality zooms using those hi rez stills in my music videos.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 01:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Croce
Got tired of begging for permission to use stills from the mostly overpaid photogs so I picked up a digital slr just to get shots to use with my video montages. It makes for much better quality zooms using those hi rez stills in my music videos.
Vincent,

We do that to, I take atleast enough pictures to do the artwork for the dvd etc. It's just my poor little Fuji 7500 won't produce what the photogods that are at weddings will.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 02:26 PM   #15
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The cam I just bought is the Olympus E-500, a fairly low end digital slr, but I can grab enough great shots for my montages, and, like you said, they're great for covers and artwork. I try to sneak away from one of the tripod mounted cams to get some table and dance shots. Only had it for one wedding, but it's worked out well so far.
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