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Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old June 18th, 2006, 08:46 AM   #31
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Ditto that.

Shlepping gear on the
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Old June 18th, 2006, 08:48 AM   #32
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Ditto that.

Shlepping gear on the day after a blizzard is SOOOO much fun ;)...something that just can't be experienced in "Paradise." Stay in HI and raise your rates.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 10:25 AM   #33
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You'all are overlooking part of the freelancer, contract worker wage equation. If you're making a direct comparison to a full-time employee, to net the same take-home pay a freelancer must bill at double to triple the employee's hourly rate. First of all, even if he puts full-time hours into his buiness only a portion of those hours end up as billable time so the hourly rate for those hours also has to cover pay for the non-billable yet working hours. Then there's self-employment social security, health, allowance for vacation and sick time, etc, etc, equipment overhead.

So if the department of labour says a regularly employee cameraman, say at a TV station, is getting $30 to $40 an hour, a freelancer would have to bill at $100 per hour or so to net the same food on the table.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 11:13 AM   #34
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The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statisitics claims that self-employed individuals are accounted for in the their occupational data. That said, it's important to note that the BLS data is gathered by a survey of employers and does rely on statisical estimates to some degree. While the data is not perfect, it comes closer than almost any other public source at getting at industry-wide practices.

Of course this does not mitigate the dilemma for freelancers that Steve points out.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 11:27 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
So if the department of labour says a regularly employee cameraman, say at a TV station, is getting $30 to $40 an hour, a freelancer would have to bill at $100 per hour or so to net the same food on the table.
On the bright side, most of these lo/no paying jobs will feed you, give you credit, and a copy! They put the food on the table for you!
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Jon East
We pay $200 to $300 based on experience and equipment being used. I find it amazing how camera operators think they are worth more. Most shoots last 5 to 6 hours. That's between 40 and 50 per hour, is that not enough?
That sounds pretty reasonable IF you are providing the equipment. If the camera op povides his own, then it's also reasonable for him to charge you for equipment rental on top of his operator's compensation at a rate pretty close to what a regular equipment rental house would charge for a day's rental on the same equipment package. So camera op bringing his own XL2 and sticks might run $250 - $350 for a full day for the operator plus another $150 - $250 for rental on the camera.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 04:13 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Keith Forman
On the bright side, most of these lo/no paying jobs will feed you, give you credit, and a copy! They put the food on the table for you!
ROFL - Food on the table, that is, only if your wife and kids can live on leftovers from the "craft services" table (ie, the PB&J sandwiches the "producer's" girlfriend slapped together).
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Old June 26th, 2006, 05:11 PM   #38
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"Originally Posted by Jon East
We pay $200 to $300 based on experience and equipment being used. I find it amazing how camera operators think they are worth more. Most shoots last 5 to 6 hours. That's between 40 and 50 per hour, is that not enough?"


This has been a great read. I thought I'd chime in.

When you look at in the larger picture and land that gig for say $300 on a day rate you also need to break this cost down or the COB (cost of doing business)

This is based if you use your own gear, and from my knowledge a 5-6/hr shoot always runs over.

Pay based on a 8/hr day-$300
Minus:
Camera wear: $50.00
Milage: $10
Food: $10
General: $20 this could include things like insurance,permits, etc.
Taxes: $80
______________
Take home $130


I also didn't include invoicing, tape, stock, etc.

So your making about $16 dollars an hour based on a 8 hour day.

At the end of the day things don't look to promising considering how nationwide the cost of everything has gone up.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 12:16 AM   #39
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These rates with rentals also is out of reach IMO. I have never heard nor seen anyone making 500.00 plus for freelancing cam op at weddings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
That sounds pretty reasonable IF you are providing the equipment. If the camera op povides his own, then it's also reasonable for him to charge you for equipment rental on top of his operator's compensation at a rate pretty close to what a regular equipment rental house would charge for a day's rental on the same equipment package. So camera op bringing his own XL2 and sticks might run $250 - $350 for a full day for the operator plus another $150 - $250 for rental on the camera.

Last edited by Joe Allen Rosenberger; June 27th, 2006 at 12:51 AM.
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Old July 17th, 2006, 05:29 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Joe Allen Rosenberger
These rates with rentals also is out of reach IMO. I have never heard nor seen anyone making 500.00 plus for freelancing cam op at weddings.
So you're saying if you go to an equipment rental house and rent a second camera, they should throw in the operator for free? Yet that's ezactly what you're saying in reverse - you want to hire an operator and get the equipment for free. $150 - $250 per day is reasonable compensation for skilled labour but why should you expect to get several thousands of dollars worth of equipment thrown in with the deal at no charge? Whether you rent your second unit camera from a rental house and then hire someone to run it or hire someone first and expect them to bring their own camera, you still have to pay for the equipment used to complete your job. After all, when you set your own rates, you build in the into the costs the cost of buying, maintaining, and replacing your equipment - why should you expect someone you hire who provides his own gear not to do the same.
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Old July 17th, 2006, 11:28 AM   #41
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Steve, I'm not saying that it is right....its not, but it is real life.....youre average freelancer is not getting the rental rate plus the op rate.....it is not happening.....and it hardly happens in Hollywood where I work a lot as well.
Just because you write it down for folks to read on this board does not mean it is really happening in the real world. I think we agree where the rates should be though...im not in disagreement with that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
So you're saying if you go to an equipment rental house and rent a second camera, they should throw in the operator for free? Yet that's ezactly what you're saying in reverse - you want to hire an operator and get the equipment for free. $150 - $250 per day is reasonable compensation for skilled labour but why should you expect to get several thousands of dollars worth of equipment thrown in with the deal at no charge? Whether you rent your second unit camera from a rental house and then hire someone to run it or hire someone first and expect them to bring their own camera, you still have to pay for the equipment used to complete your job. After all, when you set your own rates, you build in the into the costs the cost of buying, maintaining, and replacing your equipment - why should you expect someone you hire who provides his own gear not to do the same.
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Old July 17th, 2006, 12:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Allen Rosenberger
Steve, I'm not saying that it is right....its not, but it is real life.....youre average freelancer is not getting the rental rate plus the op rate.....it is not happening.....and it hardly happens in Hollywood where I work a lot as well.
Just because you write it down for folks to read on this board does not mean it is really happening in the real world. I think we agree where the rates should be though...im not in disagreement with that.
I've been following the conversations in the RAMPS board for production sound mixers for quite some time. If you hire a sound persona or boom op and have him bring his personal gear, it's a given that you will be charged equipment rental at a similar rate as if you'd gone to a rental house and rented the same gear yourself.

My point still stands ... why would you expect a freelancer you hire for 2nd camera to operate his business in a less business-like manner that you operate your own? You the sum your rates for the services with your cost for the equipment and so must he, if he's a professional and not just a hobbyist.
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Old July 17th, 2006, 12:59 PM   #43
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Some folks find jobs easier than others. While it might be righteous and only fair to charge what you want for you and your equipment, it is sometimes better to take what you can get. How much will your equipment be making if you don't use it?
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Old July 17th, 2006, 02:16 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Keith Forman
Some folks find jobs easier than others. While it might be righteous and only fair to charge what you want for you and your equipment, it is sometimes better to take what you can get. How much will your equipment be making if you don't use it?
True enough, but the original question was how much to offer someone you were hiring. What's fair to offer is based on the same business model you personally use to set the rates you charge your clients. Why stiff a fellow professional by lowballing your offer? You don't hire yourself to your client throwing in the equipment for free - why expect someone you hire to be any different?
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Old July 17th, 2006, 02:21 PM   #45
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True enough, but if that person isn't working, he should be happy to get what he can. I am not saying to screw them over though. Unless you know the person extremely well, it is hard to judge exactly how experienced they are. Would you pay a kid who just got his camcorder last week, like you would somebody that has been doing broadcast work for 15 years?
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