Need advice on videotaping legal depositions

Christopher Davis · January 11th, 2007, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

A video switcher would provide this capability for PiP and the switcher's output would be what gets recorded to tape.

-gb-

Got any low-to-mid-end examples of such a device, Greg?

Chris Davis
DigiSync, Inc.

Jason Robinson · January 11th, 2007, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

A video switcher would provide this capability for PiP and the switcher's output would be what gets recorded to tape.

-gb-

just checked B & H and they have one but it will cost you >$800US.

not cheap, but it sure is a nice little starting setup. 4 cameras with s-video in (would be nice to have an all digital in one for that price).

jason

Christopher Davis · January 15th, 2007, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Robinson

just checked B & H and they have one but it will cost you >$800US.

not cheap, but it sure is a nice little starting setup. 4 cameras with s-video in (would be nice to have an all digital in one for that price).

jason

Yep, just stumbled across (and ordered) the Edirol V-1 at B & H late last week. I presume that's the one you mention. Judging from the online manual, this might fit the bill perfectly!

Thanks for the guidance, Jason.

-Chris

Jason Robinson · January 16th, 2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Davis

Yep, just stumbled across (and ordered) the Edirol V-1 at B & H late last week. I presume that's the one you mention. Judging from the online manual, this might fit the bill perfectly!

Thanks for the guidance, Jason.

-Chris

No prob. just don't expect the same high quality out of that device because it is not digital. But for that low of a price (compared to other switchers) it will do what you need.

you can also use that for mixing live events too so have fun.

jason

Andrew Jezierski · January 17th, 2007, 01:35 PM

Does anybody know if video depositions are done in Canada? Is this a vialable business here? I've been unsuccesful to find local info.

Jason Robinson · January 18th, 2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Jezierski

Does anybody know if video depositions are done in Canada? Is this a vialable business here? I've been unsuccesful to find local info.

best way to find out is call a lawyer, or talk to the prosecuting attorneys office in the court house.

jason

Kevin James · June 5th, 2007, 06:55 PM

Back from teh Dead!

Someone mentioned NLE's being a No-No. So you output directly to a DVD recorder?

What about recording to tape while capturing live to your hard drive and delivering the DVD immediately?

Denis Danatzko · June 5th, 2007, 09:06 PM

Some here may disagree with me, but...

A few things vital to depositions:
1) it must be an exact record of what happened during the deposition. Use of an NLE hints that editing of some sort may have taken place, which would almost certainly get the deposition excluded from use at trial.
(Unless all attorney's present agree to go off the record, i.e. to stop recording, the tape constantly runs). While often interesting, it can be VERY boring.

One of the organizations espouses that the "master" should ALWAYS be recorded to VHS. (It's analog, and easier to detect changes that might have been made). It allows recording to digital, but still strongly recommends a VHS master.

2) depositions are supposed to be shot by "a disinterested third party", i.e. someone with no stake in the case or suit. If you're an "employee" of a law firm, technically, any depositions you shoot should never make it to court...the idea being that the accuracy/quality of your footage would be to enhance your employers' standing, hence their case, raising questions of fairness. If you want to do legal, independent is the way to go; you face different, not necessarily fewer, risks.

Recording to tape and capturing to DVD for immediate delivery?
Be aware that each attorney present, or at least the attorney(s) for each party that is represented, will likely want a copy, as will the court (at least in my state). I copied one dep (medical malpractice suit) where there were 5 parties represented; each lawyer wanted a copy, and a single copy consisted of 2 tapes. All that, and 1 extra copy for the court.

Ultimately, you deliver what the client (the attorney) wants: VHS, DVD, miniDV, whatever. Some even want MPEG.

The important things to know are your state's "Rules of Civil Procedure" and "Rules of Evidence". If challenged or uncertain, learn the Federal rules.

Also, prevailing wisdom is similar to what many wedding shooters do: turn over the product only AFTER you've been paid. If you don't get handed a check at the deposition, don't hand them a tape or DVD, unless they are old and reliable clients of yours and you trust them.

While I've never actually shot a dep, I've sat in on some, and have made copies when other videogaphers were too busy. I've already had to make 5 copies of a multi-tape deposition, all VHS. That can be pretty time-consuming. I have 5 VHS VCRs, set up just for that purpose...all the same model so I can control all 5 with a single remote.

The guys I know who do legal get between. $ 100-125 per hour. VERY FEW average more than 1 per week. The hardest part is breaking in. In my state, about 90% of depositions are handled by court-reporting agencies, then subcontracted to video firms, who then look for shooters certified by the same org they got certified with.. None of those guys are willing to "give someone their first job." (IMO, a bit arrogant, as they had to do the same things others did to get certified). Obviously, I'm bitter; I've had this certification for more than a year and haven't shot one dep yet, becasue no one will give me that "first job." Everything I've had in that time has been event work. At least in my neck of the woods, it's tough to break into the field. The reporting agencies seem to have everything sewn up. I have to make a more concerted effort at marketing/advertising that side of the business.

Good luck if you try it. I haven't given up yet.

Dana Salsbury · June 5th, 2007, 11:07 PM

That must be frustrating. How much was the cert?

Bill Busby · June 6th, 2007, 12:04 AM

I'd always heard/read that the original camera time/date stamp be recorded with the video signal... or does this vary by state? If using a separate VCR for recording, how would one accomplish this if one was basically shooting with a DV camera & NOT running tape from camera to get around the 1 hr. loads?

Of course if one was to be running tape in cam (an XH-A1 in my case), I could use the data superimpose function from video out into the deck, but that would defeat the purpose of having a separate VCR... still having to pause every hour for tape change.

Just curious
Bill

Denis Danatzko · June 6th, 2007, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dana Salsbury

That must be frustrating. How much was the cert?

AsI recall, it was approx $ 700. And, to keep the cert, there is a yearly membership fee...not big $$, but required to keep membership active.

In addition, I "studied" on my own, taking the "home study" course; took it seriously, so I spent quite a bit of time reading/studying/practicing. I was told I rec'd one of their highest grades ever for home study, but that hasn't helped me yet. Some think these things are merely a way for the orgs to generate income for themselves. I found it helpful, in that I learned things that I hadn't seen in other reading material, e.g. keeping log sheets, how a video dep could be excluded due to bad lighting/audio, other forms/procedures (like "chain of evidence", etc).

It wasn't a waste, because I learned quite a bit, but I certainly haven't recouped my investment. I did make some contacts, and got/get occassional copy work, AND I'm on other's lists as a backup if they get overbooked, but that hasn't happened yet and I'm not holding my breath.

Again, at least in my state, the court reporting agenices seem to have this locked up, and if you're an "outsider" it's tough to get any work in legal. You pretty much have to do it on your own by contacting attorneys, and often, your best shot at getting started is to do video wills. Get a few of them under your belt and the door opens just a crack.

Also, "legal" includes more than merely depositions, e.g. "day-in-the-life", settlement brochures, pre, mid, and post-construction videos, and forensic (which is probably the toughest to land, i.e. think taping a crime scene...lots of details to tape and identify, without damaging/upsetting evidence.

Denis Danatzko · June 6th, 2007, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Busby

I'd always heard/read that the original camera time/date stamp be recorded with the video signal... or does this vary by state? If using a separate VCR for recording, how would one accomplish this if one was basically shooting with a DV camera & NOT running tape from camera to get around the 1 hr. loads?

Of course if one was to be running tape in cam (an XH-A1 in my case), I could use the data superimpose function from video out into the deck, but that would defeat the purpose of having a separate VCR... still having to pause every hour for tape change.

Just curious
Bill

I've heard others say this varies by state. I was taught that it does. I learned to follow the federal rules, so date/time stamp are considered necessary. If, by some long-shot, the case reaches the federal court level, the federal rules become all the more important. (I have an HVX, and the date-time stamp are not output via firewire, so the Firestore is out, as is the CitiDisk, and any other firewire options. That's why I was SO anxious to get a CinePorter, and SO disappointed when it was pulled from development).

Also, the HVX user manual specifically warns against recording miniDV in LP mode. That, coupled with the lack of date-time stamp via firewire, my choices are to record to miniDV in SP mode, P2, or composite-out to VHS or HDD. P2 is impractical, and miniDV limits me to an hour. Direct to VHS allows for the fewest breaks to change tapes.

I run the composite-out cable from the cam to the VCR input while simultaneously recording to miniDV. I often use a combo CRT-tv/VHS recorder, so it serves as both a monitor AND a VHS VCR. I was taught that, as long as you make no changes/edits, you can copy a digital recording right over to a VHS/S-VHS VCR. For that, I use a JVC miniDV/S-VHS VTR. I don't have a DVD/hard-disk recorder. I'd like one, I just don't own one yet. So, I still need to break at the 1-hour mark to change miniDV tape.

A couple guys I know record only to a miniDV in LP mode, then copy/transfer to VHS. That gives them longer record times, which the attorneys seem to like, (fewer breaks to change tapes), as do the court reporting agencies. They buy custom-length VHS tapes to coincide with the length of a miniDV shot in LP mode. (90 mins, +/-). It also means fewer VHS tapes that comprise the "final" product, lower costs, (both material and shipping/postage), and compatible record times among media. (Though they admit they SHOULD record the "master" directly to VHS). Recording miniDV in LP mode can cause problems in copying, as my miniDV/S-VHS VTR cannot read miniDV tapes shot in LP. When I get a job to copy/transfer an LP miniDV to VHS, I have to use a palmcorder to play those back.

Regarding the "data superimpose" function, I don't face that with the HVX. The HVX writes date-time stamps only to 3 places: P2, any in-camera miniDV, and the component-out. So, as long as my menu settings are correct to display and output the date/time, I must use one of those media.

If the date-time stamp are added after recording has occurred, rather than output drectly from the camera, that could easily be argued to be "editing". If a sharp (picky? pita?) attorney knew that was the case, they could argue (probably with success) that the dep had been changed and have it excluded from testimony/evidence. (If I were an attorney, and I knew that to be the case, I would certainly make that argument).

A mistake like that would likely result in never getting additional work from those attorneys. That is the type of thing legal videographers are responsible to know. While the attorneys are familiar with the procedures/requirements, the videographers should know these things going in.

Jon Omiatek · June 6th, 2007, 09:15 AM

Waldemer,

That was one of the best information posts on depositions i've seen, thanks for your time.

One other piece of information is that you can be called to court to testify. If so, make sure you have an hourly rate in your contract.

I deposed about 100 people for a class action law suit and spent about 6 days in court testifying. We charged the attorney our hourly rate with a minumum of 3 hours.

I would also be carful when charging for depositions that you have a minumum amount of time. It's common to get a 1 or 2 hour deposition. One week, I had 40 hours of depositions.

John Miller · June 6th, 2007, 09:49 AM

RE: Time stamping etc

Our Enosoft DV Processor will let you add the time/date stamp to the video portion of a live DV stream and then send the stamped DV stream either to hard disk or an another DV device. All of this occurs in real-time.

A number of possibile configurations are possible:

1. DV Camcorder-->Enosoft DV Processor-->DV AVI file (Type 1 or Type 2)

2. DV Camcorder-->Enosoft DV Processor-->DV Recorder (e.g., DSR-11)

3. DV Camcorder-->Enosoft DV Processor-->DVD Recorder with FireWire input

4. DV Camcorder-->Enosoft DV Processor-->DV Recorder--Analog O/P-->DVD Recorder

For option 3, you need a DVD Recorder with FireWire input that is recognized by Windows as a DV device (some are, some aren't). If not, use the analog outputs from a DV recorder and connect them to the analog inputs of the DVD recorder (option 4).

If needs be, you can add a title to the video, too.

The software can easily achieve real-time performance on a 1.5GHz laptop running Windows XP. You will need a processor that supports the SSE2 instruction set. The installer checks for this.

The software is publically available at no cost for non-commercial use and, if you use options 2, 3 or 4 above, there will be an occasional 'spoiler' frame every 10 seconds or so. You can use the non-commercial version for evaluation purposes.

Naturally, the commercial version doesn't spoil the output and also takes advantage of multiple processors.

Please see the web site listing in my profile.

Regards,

John.

January 17th, 2007, 01:35 PM	#20
Andrew Jezierski Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Windsor, Ontario Posts: 35	legal depositions in canada? Does anybody know if video depositions are done in Canada? Is this a vialable business here? I've been unsuccesful to find local info.

June 5th, 2007, 09:06 PM	#23
Denis Danatzko Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NYC Metro area Posts: 579	I got certified by one of the 2 most known certifying agencies. Some here may disagree with me, but... A few things vital to depositions: 1) it must be an exact record of what happened during the deposition. Use of an NLE hints that editing of some sort may have taken place, which would almost certainly get the deposition excluded from use at trial. (Unless all attorney's present agree to go off the record, i.e. to stop recording, the tape constantly runs). While often interesting, it can be VERY boring. One of the organizations espouses that the "master" should ALWAYS be recorded to VHS. (It's analog, and easier to detect changes that might have been made). It allows recording to digital, but still strongly recommends a VHS master. 2) depositions are supposed to be shot by "a disinterested third party", i.e. someone with no stake in the case or suit. If you're an "employee" of a law firm, technically, any depositions you shoot should never make it to court...the idea being that the accuracy/quality of your footage would be to enhance your employers' standing, hence their case, raising questions of fairness. If you want to do legal, independent is the way to go; you face different, not necessarily fewer, risks. Recording to tape and capturing to DVD for immediate delivery? Be aware that each attorney present, or at least the attorney(s) for each party that is represented, will likely want a copy, as will the court (at least in my state). I copied one dep (medical malpractice suit) where there were 5 parties represented; each lawyer wanted a copy, and a single copy consisted of 2 tapes. All that, and 1 extra copy for the court. Ultimately, you deliver what the client (the attorney) wants: VHS, DVD, miniDV, whatever. Some even want MPEG. The important things to know are your state's "Rules of Civil Procedure" and "Rules of Evidence". If challenged or uncertain, learn the Federal rules. Also, prevailing wisdom is similar to what many wedding shooters do: turn over the product only AFTER you've been paid. If you don't get handed a check at the deposition, don't hand them a tape or DVD, unless they are old and reliable clients of yours and you trust them. While I've never actually shot a dep, I've sat in on some, and have made copies when other videogaphers were too busy. I've already had to make 5 copies of a multi-tape deposition, all VHS. That can be pretty time-consuming. I have 5 VHS VCRs, set up just for that purpose...all the same model so I can control all 5 with a single remote. The guys I know who do legal get between. $ 100-125 per hour. VERY FEW average more than 1 per week. The hardest part is breaking in. In my state, about 90% of depositions are handled by court-reporting agencies, then subcontracted to video firms, who then look for shooters certified by the same org they got certified with.. None of those guys are willing to "give someone their first job." (IMO, a bit arrogant, as they had to do the same things others did to get certified). Obviously, I'm bitter; I've had this certification for more than a year and haven't shot one dep yet, becasue no one will give me that "first job." Everything I've had in that time has been event work. At least in my neck of the woods, it's tough to break into the field. The reporting agencies seem to have everything sewn up. I have to make a more concerted effort at marketing/advertising that side of the business. Good luck if you try it. I haven't given up yet. __________________ Denis ------------ Our actions are based on our own experience and knowledge. Thus, no one is ever totally right, nor totally wrong. We simply act from what we "know" to be true, based on that experience and knowledge. Beyond that, we pose questions to others.

June 5th, 2007, 11:07 PM	#24
Dana Salsbury Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 859	That must be frustrating. How much was the cert? __________________ www.LegacyHDV.com Weddings \| Corporate \| HMC150s \| FCPX \| Encore \| Lion

June 5th, 2007, 06:55 PM	#22
Kevin James Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 204	Back from teh Dead! Someone mentioned NLE's being a No-No. So you output directly to a DVD recorder? What about recording to tape while capturing live to your hard drive and delivering the DVD immediately?

June 6th, 2007, 12:04 AM	#25
Bill Busby Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 959	I'd always heard/read that the original camera time/date stamp be recorded with the video signal... or does this vary by state? If using a separate VCR for recording, how would one accomplish this if one was basically shooting with a DV camera & NOT running tape from camera to get around the 1 hr. loads? Of course if one was to be running tape in cam (an XH-A1 in my case), I could use the data superimpose function from video out into the deck, but that would defeat the purpose of having a separate VCR... still having to pause every hour for tape change. Just curious Bill

June 6th, 2007, 09:15 AM	#28
Jon Omiatek Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 755	Waldemer, That was one of the best information posts on depositions i've seen, thanks for your time. One other piece of information is that you can be called to court to testify. If so, make sure you have an hourly rate in your contract. I deposed about 100 people for a class action law suit and spent about 6 days in court testifying. We charged the attorney our hourly rate with a minumum of 3 hours. I would also be carful when charging for depositions that you have a minumum amount of time. It's common to get a 1 or 2 hour deposition. One week, I had 40 hours of depositions.

June 6th, 2007, 09:49 AM	#29
John Miller Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hillsborough, NC, USA Posts: 968	RE: Time stamping etc Our Enosoft DV Processor will let you add the time/date stamp to the video portion of a live DV stream and then send the stamped DV stream either to hard disk or an another DV device. All of this occurs in real-time. A number of possibile configurations are possible: 1. DV Camcorder-->Enosoft DV Processor-->DV AVI file (Type 1 or Type 2) 2. DV Camcorder-->Enosoft DV Processor-->DV Recorder (e.g., DSR-11) 3. DV Camcorder-->Enosoft DV Processor-->DVD Recorder with FireWire input 4. DV Camcorder-->Enosoft DV Processor-->DV Recorder--Analog O/P-->DVD Recorder For option 3, you need a DVD Recorder with FireWire input that is recognized by Windows as a DV device (some are, some aren't). If not, use the analog outputs from a DV recorder and connect them to the analog inputs of the DVD recorder (option 4). If needs be, you can add a title to the video, too. The software can easily achieve real-time performance on a 1.5GHz laptop running Windows XP. You will need a processor that supports the SSE2 instruction set. The installer checks for this. The software is publically available at no cost for non-commercial use and, if you use options 2, 3 or 4 above, there will be an occasional 'spoiler' frame every 10 seconds or so. You can use the non-commercial version for evaluation purposes. Naturally, the commercial version doesn't spoil the output and also takes advantage of multiple processors. Please see the web site listing in my profile. Regards, John.