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Old September 28th, 2007, 01:20 PM   #1
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Video Scopes "Settings" confusion..

To this day, I still do not fully grasp how to make sure my picture is not washed out on a somewhat properly calibrated TV. Situation is that I have a video that will become a DVD when it's done. Basically a subject in front a a black background giving a lesson. When I open my video scopes and go to the waveform scope, there is the settings button, which when you press it gives you two check boxes:

1) 7.5 IRE Setup
2) Studio RGB (16 to 235)

Depending on if any combination of these are checked, it moves my black level up or down. So without knowing which one of these options should be checked, I don't know if I will have the right black level. It will look bad if it's wrong because of the solid black background. I'm just creating a DVD that will either be played on a TV (probably most will play it this way) and on the computer too. I know the color temperature is different between the TV and the computer monitor so that makes it more difficult, but I would rather have it look optimum for the TV viewers anyways.

Also, I don't have a clue how to use the Vectorscope, it's never made any sense to me, nor have I found any resource on how to use it, or what it's even used for.

If anyone can give me some pointers on which of those two settings should be checked for my situation so that I can use the color correcter and levels to get a decent looking final picture.

Thanks!
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Old September 28th, 2007, 01:48 PM   #2
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Usually (but not always) a value of 16 16 16 RGB will give you the proper black if you are mastering to DVD.

A- If you go to an analog master, you have to watch out for the digital->analog conversion. Most consumer DV equipment will do this incorrectly. The "7.5 IRE Setup" is for you to tell your scopes what digital-->analog conversion is occuring / how the digital values map to analog values. Anyways just ignore this since it doesn't apply to you!

B- The Main Concept MPEG-2 will want to see studio RGB levels, where black is at 16 16 16 RGB and white is at 235 235 235 RGB. This is when Vegas is in 8-bit mode.

C- In 32-bit mode the Main Concept MPEG-2 encoder will want to see computer RGB levels (black at 0 0 0 RGB, white at 255 255 255 RGB). This mode is more confusing... see
http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas...lorspaces.html
and then
http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas...or/v8color.htm

If you work in a 8-bit project then you don't need to worry about it.

2-
Quote:
how to make sure my picture is not washed out on a somewhat properly calibrated TV.
a- Calibrate your monitor (I assume you are using an external preview device / TV or broadcast monitor, not a computer monitor). Use Vegas' color bars, send that to your monitor. Adjust the "brightness" setting on your TV until the leftmost PLUGE bar just disappears.
http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm
*This only works in 8-bit mode.
**The blue gel trick doesn't really work.

b- Make sure that all the levels conversions are occuring correctly. You kind of have three types of sources:
---Codecs that decode to computer RGB levels (computer formats, still images, etc.). You will need to add a computer RGB --> studio RGB conversion using the preset in the Color Corrector (or Levels).
---Codecs that decode to studio RGB levels (video-oriented formats). The MPEG-2 codec you are encoding to wants to see studio RGB levels, so do nothing.
---DV footage with improper levels (some can be set this way)
Or footage may have a lot of flare if the sun hits the lens, which raises black level.

c- To deal with the last case...
See the following article:
http://www.vasst.com/resource.aspx?i...0-90d2f8de9fc1

The way I show you to setup the waveform monitor is a useful way of setting them up, though somewhat wrong. The simple answer is that if you set them up the way I set them up, they are totally unrelated to analog video levels. This is ok when mastering to DVD, since you only need to worry about how your digital levels end up (no digital --> analog conversion to worry about).

3- The complicated answer is in these three articles:
http://glennchan.info/articles/techn...5IREsetup.html

And the two previously linked:
http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas...lorspaces.html
http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas...or/v8color.htm (you only need to know this if working in 32-bit mode / Vegas 8)

The reason I advocate having 7.5 IRE setup unchecked is that there is no marker/line at 7.5 (which good waveform monitors have). So that makes it difficult to see if your video image is pegging black level.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 02:12 PM   #3
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I think I am more confused now. Perhaps I should have given more info:

1) I'm using Vegas 7.0, not version 8 yet.
2) This is standard def NTSC 720x480, no high def stuff for me
3) I'm outputting through the firewire to a Canon ZR-20, and then that is connected to my new Samsung television.
4) Once the video is edited, I'm going to encode to AVI and import into Encore DVD where the encoding will occur at the time I build the disc.

I just adjusted my TV again with the color bars and basically doubled the brightness I had set. It was on 33 and now it's on 60!! Could that possibly be right?

Even after reading all that, I still don't know if I should have that 2nd option checked or not? If it's checked, it makes black level 0, if not, it bumps black up to 7.5. If I pick the wrong option, and set my level to 0 when it's supposed to be 7.5, the picture will be too dark right?
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Old September 28th, 2007, 02:28 PM   #4
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This is what I came up with. It looks good on the TV, but now it's really dark on my computer monitor. Should I just not worry about how it looks on the computer monitor?

I've also attached one avi frame (rename from .mov to .avi) from the orig. footage without any correction so you can see if I did a good job or not.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 02:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Costantini View Post
This is what I came up with. It looks good on the TV, but now it's really dark on my computer monitor. Should I just not worry about how it looks on the computer monitor?
Bingo! You can't do accurate color assessments with the computer monitor. That's why the separate dedicated production monitor is important. A consumer set will be more helpful than a computer screen, but ultimately you should strive for a real production monitor with blue gun switch, etc. There have been a few good deals recently in the DVINFO classifieds.

-gb-
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Old September 28th, 2007, 02:53 PM   #6
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"Bingo" as in I did it right? I know it's probably not perfect but it's not a hollywood epic either haha. I didn't mean worrying about doing color correction from the computer monitor, I meant the big difference in how it looks on the computer and the TV, i.e., if someone buys this DVD and watches it on his computer, it will be looking a lot darker unless he messes with his brightness controls, right? Did you see the avi frame too?
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Old September 28th, 2007, 03:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
4) Once the video is edited, I'm going to encode to AVI and import into Encore DVD where the encoding will occur at the time I build the disc.
Be careful about what codec you encode to. The Sony Vegas DV codec wants to see studio RGB levels, which it looks like you got right.

Quote:
I just adjusted my TV again with the color bars and basically doubled the brightness I had set. It was on 33 and now it's on 60!! Could that possibly be right?
That could be right... DV devices will output black level too low (most of them output non-standard levels).
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Old September 28th, 2007, 03:16 PM   #8
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I didn't select a codec? I just encoded that frame to NTSC DV AVI which I will also use to encode the whole video when it's done. And then import that AVI into Encore DVD for authoring.. OK, so to sum everything, I used the waveform monitor and unchecked both check boxes in the settings. And then I used the levels FX to set the black to the 0 line on the waveform monitor. And decreased the "input end" setting so that the highest part of the graph hit the 100 line.

But that just brought up another question. what if I don't have any "white" in the picture? There is some white in my picture, but not very much and I don't think any of it is "true white" How do you know how far to adjust the input end setting if there isn't any white in the picture to bring it up to the 100 line?
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Old September 28th, 2007, 03:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Costantini View Post
But that just brought up another question. what if I don't have any "white" in the picture? There is some white in my picture, but not very much and I don't think any of it is "true white" How do you know how far to adjust the input end setting if there isn't any white in the picture to bring it up to the 100 line?
Often times, one would shoot a chip chart at the beginning of the shot which has all the information necessary to assess color and luminance levels in the scene.

-gb-
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Old September 29th, 2007, 12:44 AM   #10
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Color Bars and How To Use 'em
If you don't have a monitor with a "blue gun only" switch, some of this will not apply but it's a start.
Also, check out the first 2 tutorials on BillyBoy's site.
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Old September 29th, 2007, 01:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
I didn't select a codec? I just encoded that frame to NTSC DV AVI which I will also use to encode the whole video when it's done.
You selected the DV codec. Which DV codec is used depends on Vegas preferences... by default Vegas will use its own DV codec. With the preferences you can tell it to use another DV codec. Anyways just stick with the Vegas DV codec (which is the default, so you don't have to do anything).

Quote:
And then import that AVI into Encore DVD for authoring.. OK, so to sum everything, I used the waveform monitor and unchecked both check boxes in the settings. And then I used the levels FX to set the black to the 0 line on the waveform monitor. And decreased the "input end" setting so that the highest part of the graph hit the 100 line.
I would recommend checking the 'studio rgb' box. And then pegging 0 and 100 (though for that particular clip you don't have to touch anything?). This will give you the right result in your case.

Quote:
But that just brought up another question. what if I don't have any "white" in the picture? There is some white in my picture, but not very much and I don't think any of it is "true white" How do you know how far to adjust the input end setting if there isn't any white in the picture to bring it up to the 100 line?
That would be an extremely rare case... use your judgement.
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Old September 29th, 2007, 10:02 AM   #12
 
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Glenn...

Just a BIG word of thanx. You've been most helpful; and now, these two articles have helped a great deal, especially the one entitled V8 color. No, it's not simple, is it? But then, that's the difference between skilled production and amateur production.
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Old September 29th, 2007, 11:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Costantini View Post
This is what I came up with. It looks good on the TV, but now it's really dark on my computer monitor. Should I just not worry about how it looks on the computer monitor?

I've also attached one avi frame (rename from .mov to .avi) from the orig. footage without any correction so you can see if I did a good job or not.
Mike, is that Robert Conti? It sure looks it.
If so, I'm sure you know Mike is a monster guitar player.

Sorry for the detour...
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