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Old July 18th, 2009, 10:10 AM   #1
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I need advice for embedding info in clips and migration workflow Vegas9 to FCP

Hi everyone.

I've just returned from Poland where we shot what will eventually be a 52 minute film.
There were 25 shooting days resulting in about 40 hours of material. Now, I have returned to Tel Aviv where I will view the material and possibly assemble some sort of rough cut or some possible scenes with the intention of being best prepared for editing - which will take place back in Poland (with a Polish editor) 7 weeks from today.

I am not an editor, or a cinematographer and my knowledge of digital media technology is fairly limited. I've worked on some smaller projects on my own, using Sony Vegas software and I've been very happy with it, but this film is much larger in scale, with a serious budget and the work-flow is a bit complicated - mainly because of having to go back and forth between Tel Aviv and Lodz. So I really could use some advice on how to go about the task of viewing, logging and rough-cutting the material on Vegas 9 in a way that will help us avoid problems (as much as possible) when I take all my work and move them to the editing suite in Lodz, Poland.

So let me describe in as much detail as possible what kind of material we have so far and what is planned for the later stages...

CAMERAS
The film was shot with three different cameras - one main camera, and two supporting cameras adding some additional footage.

The main camera used (about 85% of material shot):
SONY PMW-EX1
(PAL, HD, 1080-50i)

Additional footage (about 10% of material) shot with:
SONY HVR-Z1
(PAL, HDV, 1080-50i)

and other footage (about 5%) shot with:
SONY HDR-HC3
(PAL, HDV)

MATERIAL STORED
Material from the EX1 were transferred from memory cards to an external hard drive using SONY XDCAM EX Clip Browser. Beforehand, the hard drive was formatted to use NTFS file system. I currently have this external hard drive (LaCie 1TB USB 2.0) with me here in Tel Aviv. There is a backup of the material on a similar hard drive in Poland.

The clips are .MP4 files.

The material from additional cameras is on mini dv tapes. The material from the Z1 have already been captured to disk with Vegas. The material from the HC3 haven't been captured to disk yet.

WORK FLOW AND PREPARATION FOR EDITING
So the situation is like this...

The editor in Lodz edits on a Mac, on Final Cut Pro. Yet, I use a PC and the only video editing software I have is Sony Vegas 9.

I realize that there are compatibility issues between both these applications. The production company says that they should be able to get around these issues... but from my experience with working with them on this project - I'd prefer to have a second opinion and have more control/knowledge over what is going on.

POST PRODUCTION PLAN
The plan is about 4-5 weeks of editing, then 2 weeks of sound, then one week for color correction and about a week for mastering. All will take place in Poland.

QUESTIONS
So the burning questions are these:

1. First of all - viewing and logging the material. I'd like to view the material and type descriptions of each clip so that I can later easily search by keywords and find clips regardless of which video software - Sony Vegas, Final Cut or XDCAM EX Clip Browser. But I'm a bit confused as to how to add these descriptions and in what way can I later search through them.
Vegas has the option of adding comments to clips in the Project Media Pane; the XDCAM EX Clip Browser has a pane where I can add - title 1, title 2, creator, description - to each clip, as well. But it seems that Vegas comments ONLY appear within Vegas and the descriptions I type in the XDCAM EX Clip Browser don't seem to show up anywhere else other than when viewing the clips within this particular browser. The information also doesn't appear anywhere in the file tags when opening the files Properties in Windows. Is there a way to type my descriptions of the clips so that it is accessible and modifiable in all applications? similar, in a way, to how I add/edit ID3 tags to my music files? I definitely don't want to go through days of logging only to find out, 7 weeks later in Lodz, that Final Cut doesn't recognize any of the information I've added to the clips.

2. what would be the best way to go about working with the material in Sony Vegas 9 and then later what exactly should I be exporting and taking with me to Poland to make the transition of my work to the Final Cut as smooth as possible?

I'm guessing that I should avoid any use of FX, color correction or special clip transitions - such as fades, etc.

The production company said that the main problem of transferring my pre-edit work from Vegas to Final Cut has something to do with sound. But I really want to better understand all the details and what options there are to make things more efficient. It would be a pity to waste precious editing hours on just solving problems that have to do with switching platforms.


I'd really appreciate any experience-based advice on this, or links to where I could read up on some (not too techy) material on this stuff.

The first question regarding the adding of descriptions to clips, is of course most urgent, since I'd like to get started with viewing and logging right away...

I may have more questions regarding this project as I progress...

Looking forward to your replies! Thank you!!
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Old July 31st, 2009, 08:57 PM   #2
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I am surprised nobody replied to you about this. I hope I am not too late. :)

Regarding the comments question, there's not an easy answer to this. Different editors use different tagging systems, so it's almost impossible to carry them through from one app to another. I would suggest you just type the comments in a text file, with the filename of the video, and then do a "search" on the text file based on the filename whenever you need it. It's the only solution that works cross-platform with any app.

Regarding the exporting question for FCP. The best codec to export from within Vegas towards FCP (and the other way around), is Avid's DNxHD. It's the cheapest solution, with good results as an intermediate codec.

The other solution is ProRES, but on Vegas you can only read ProRES, not write. Then there's Cineform, but that costs money. So, install DNxHD from here for the PC and/or Mac:
Knowledge Base
(and tell the guys in Poland to install it on their Mac too)
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Old July 31st, 2009, 10:30 PM   #3
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Eugenia is on the money with the Avid DNxHD advice. It was built exactly to do what you are trying to do. There are other issues though.

The BIG question is do you intend to finish the project on Vegas or on FCP. If you intend to finish on FCP (especially to finish the sound in ProTools) you're going to need a third party tool to assist you in getting an OMF file that will go into ProTools.

If this were MY project, I'd create a timeline that had ALL the footage on a timelline, then create a master of it, and a proxy sized file with timecode window burn. Do your cuts, export the EDL both as text and any other format Vegas will allow, and then hand the entire drive over to the FCP side and let them finish it.

There will be a LOT more support out there going forward with an FCP project than a Vegas project, so that's where I'd focus on getting to.
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Old August 1st, 2009, 02:52 AM   #4
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Thanks Eugenia and Perrone for your replies! :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru
I am surprised nobody replied to you about this. I hope I am not too late. :)
Hey Eugenia... Not to late yet :) Still running through the material, logging and selecting. I have until early September to assemble some sort of rough structure of the film to take with me to Poland. The editor in Poland has a copy of all the material on hard drive and will be viewing and assembling as well. So when we meet in September we can compare ideas and start from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru
I would suggest you just type the comments in a text file, with the filename of the video, and then do a "search" on the text file based on the filename whenever you need it.
That's exactly what I did :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru
Regarding the exporting question for FCP. The best codec to export from within Vegas towards FCP (and the other way around), is Avid's DNxHD. It's the cheapest solution, with good results as an intermediate codec.
Ok. I'll install the DNxHD codec. Thanks for the link.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by 'export from within Vegas towards FCP'. I'm guessing it means that I'll eventually be saving my project as a file (not a veg file) that FCP can open. If you could explain this to me, that would be great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru
and tell the guys in Poland to install it on their Mac too
I will. And since the editor has a copy of the material in Poland, I might try sending him a file created in Vegas to see if he can open it and work with it. Will that work? Is there something I should know before doing this test?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford
If you intend to finish on FCP (especially to finish the sound in ProTools) you're going to need a third party tool to assist you in getting an OMF file that will go into ProTools.
We will finish the project in FCP. Yes, sound will be done with ProTools.
Can you please point me in the direction of what third party tools there are to help me getting the OMF into ProTools? I'll also send all of this information to my colleagues in Poland, so that they will be best prepared when I get there to start editing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford
I'd create a timeline that had ALL the footage on a timelline, then create a master of it, and a proxy sized file with timecode window burn.
Hey Perrone, you kind of lost me here... :) Can you please explain to me what you mean by 'create a master of it'? Also I'm afraid I don't know what a 'proxy sized file with timecode window burn' is... :/


Thanks! I'll keep you posted as to how things go....
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Old August 1st, 2009, 03:52 AM   #5
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I sent the tool info to someone last week who was doing the same thing. I'll find that for you tomorrow and link it.

The DNxHD codec is terrific. Both Mac (FCP) and Windows NLEs can read it and write to it. The quality is similar to ProRes and ProResHQ. Good enough for feature film work. It's free and if your Mac and PC both have it installed, copy files back and forth is trivial. It just works the way you'd want it to.

When I say create a master, I mean create the highest quality version you possibly can. If you shoot in 1080p, then create a 1080p master with the best quality codec you can. In your case that will be DNxHD 220x (a 10-bit codec equivalent to ProResHQ).

When I say create a proxy, I mean create a small SD version, maybe in DV format, that is fast and easy to edit. You work with that version and do all your edits. When you complete your edits (but before you start color grading and everything) simply do a "media replace" in Vegas and point to the master file. Vegas will then replace the small proxy media you've been working with, with the master quality file, and apply all your edits to the master. It's a very neat way to work, and very popular in the film industry. There instead of cutting actual film, all editing is done in the NLE and those decisions get "matched back" to the actual film by frame numbers. Vegas makes it so easy to do with that one command.
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Old August 1st, 2009, 11:22 AM   #6
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I think Perrone's suggested workflow; creation of a new master, has many benefits, which he hasn't fully explained:

With one master clip containing one consistent timecode all confusion about reel numbers is gone. This can be a very significant issue. Unique timecode is the key to later matching. By default, each tape starts from TC 0:00. One can start each tape at consecutive hours, eg. tape 1 starts at 1:00:00;00, tape 2 at 2:00:00;00, etc. This gives you unique TC and ready reference to reel numbers, but only works for 23 or 24 reels.

Your situation is different in that you have a mix of tape and tapeless acquisition. Your HC3 probably doesn't even support TC presets. And your project is already shot - too late to develop a new TC strategy for acquisition with unique timecodes.

A new master reel resolves all these timecodes issues in one (lengthy) step. So many headaches gone!

Next step - a proxy with burnt-in TC window. As Perrone said, it's fast to edit with. The TC window means that the Tel Aviv edit becomes an irrevocable record of the edit decisions. It is rock solid, not subject to formatting, translation, 3rd party software, or any other possible sources of error.

I'd add to P's workflow and suggest that the proxy edit be output (with that TC visible).

What can be done with this is that it can go on a lower video track in FCP. The Lodz editor has all previous edit decisions, with timecode referencing the DNxHD master, up on the screen. This is a very solid reference to the Tel Aviv edit.

PS. Creating a new master reel is also a good opportunity to uprez your HDV footage to HD. That's going to save some time and trouble in Lodz!
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Last edited by Seth Bloombaum; August 1st, 2009 at 03:39 PM. Reason: typo
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Old August 1st, 2009, 11:33 AM   #7
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Thank you Seth. It was VERY late here and I hadn't slept and my medicine was kicking in! Glad I was even coherent.

Yes, certainly LEAVE the timecode window intact on the proxy so you have a frame accurate master to work with. Don't worry about the transitions and so forth at this point. You can assemble those in FCP.

One other thing. Be SURE to lock the audio BEFORE you start doing the cuts! Check the audio sync in the entire project before you begin to edit, otherwise on these long projects it can become very difficult.

I will look for that tool in just a moment and link that for you.

-P
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Old August 1st, 2009, 11:35 AM   #8
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Here is the tool you need. Should solve your issue.

AVTransfer Home

*Just noticed the price*. It's not cheap... so perhaps explore other options first. But it's there if you need it.
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Old August 1st, 2009, 07:12 PM   #9
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Seth, thanks for the advice! And Perron, thanks for the link!

I think I'm understanding the logic of the work flow you suggest but I'm still not so clear about some things.

Let's start with what I think I DO understand...
If I get what you guys are saying, then basically I'll be ending up with one long stretch of all material shot for this film, consisting of a consecutively running timecode throughout from beginning to end. As if it was all shot on one camera on an everlasting tape. Right?

Then the next step would be to make two copies of this - one high quality (MASTER) and one low quality (PROXY). Similar to how you would make a telecine copy of a film - edit the telecine and then send the EDL to the lab for cutting the negatives. Right?

So my questions are:

1. Does this mean that when editing I will actually have one single huge 50 hour clip in the project library rather than several different clips?

2. To make the Master and Proxy versions of the whole project sitting on the timeline - does this mean rendering 50 hours of material? twice?

3. In Vegas 9, how do I create this new timecode for all material sitting on the timeline? Also, would this new TC override any existing TC created while shooting?

4. Using Vegas 9, how exactly would I then go about burning in that window for the proxy file with the TC visible?

Sorry if some of these questions seem stupid... I've been using Vegas for some time, but never really did anything like this...

Thanks for the help!!
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Old August 1st, 2009, 08:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
Seth, thanks for the advice! And Perron, thanks for the link!

I think I'm understanding the logic of the work flow you suggest but I'm still not so clear about some things.
I've never done this with as much material as you have. 10 hours is about as much as I've ever tried this with, and I didn't have to port it to FCP and Protools for a finish. So I'll offer as much as I can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
Let's start with what I think I DO understand...
If I get what you guys are saying, then basically I'll be ending up with one long stretch of all material shot for this film, consisting of a consecutively running timecode throughout from beginning to end. As if it was all shot on one camera on an everlasting tape. Right?
In concept, yes this is correct. In practice, in your position, I'd probably do it per camera. So all main camera goes on one timeline, all B-Cam, all C-Cam, etc. This way you will end up separate tracks for each of your cams which should make doing a multicamera edit much easier. I am doing this right now on a shorter project with only 2 cams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
Then the next step would be to make two copies of this - one high quality (MASTER) and one low quality (PROXY). Similar to how you would make a telecine copy of a film - edit the telecine and then send the EDL to the lab for cutting the negatives. Right?
Correct. But instead of delivering an EDL only, you can deliver an EDL with associated materials pre-cut.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
1. Does this mean that when editing I will actually have one single huge 50 hour clip in the project library rather than several different clips?

You CAN do it that way, but it would be ugly to work with. I suggest doing it in several smaller sub-projects. This is when Vegas' nesting can come in handy. I tend to work in Scenes. All material for a particular scene is placed in one project until I get a rough cut. Then move to the next scene.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
2. To make the Master and Proxy versions of the whole project sitting on the timeline - does this mean rendering 50 hours of material? twice?
Yes, eventually you will render all 50 hours. Or you can pre-trim and take out the outtakes and stuff you know you won't use. That should shorten things tremendously. Or are you saying you actually have 50 hours of footage you are perfectly happy with and will need to assemble it all to make your edits?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
3. In Vegas 9, how do I create this new timecode for all material sitting on the timeline? Also, would this new TC override any existing TC created while shooting?
File > Properties > Ruler

What I would do is to increment by 30 minutes per scene. That way, nothing collides. And when you put the final master together, you can reset all the timecodes. And yes, this timecode will override anything recorded in the camera. However, it is display only. You aren't stamping the original files with this. It's just to show you where you are with the cutting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
4. Using Vegas 9, how exactly would I then go about burning in that window for the proxy file with the TC visible?
On the preview window, click the "+" button, (Video Output FX). Select Sony Timecode. Select a font, size and location. That's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
Sorry if some of these questions seem stupid... I've been using Vegas for some time, but never really did anything like this...

Thanks for the help!!
Questions are excellent. We all have to learn, and this is a great way to do it. It is somewhat unfortunate you are trying to learn this on your first BIG project. Maybe you should go out and shoot a 5 minute scene with 3 cameras, and go through the motions of a basic 30 edit. That way you can get the hang of it without having to learn on the big project. That's how I started.
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Old August 2nd, 2009, 11:14 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
3. In Vegas 9, how do I create this new timecode for all material sitting on the timeline? Also, would this new TC override any existing TC created while shooting?
If you couldn't tell, I've done a lot with timecode for multicamera and separately recorded audio.

Per Perrone, the new master TC can be applied to the preview window, this is "Project-level" efx.

You need this - do it. And yes, it replaces original camera TC.

However, if you have production notes, logs, whatever that are keyed to your original camera TC, you can capture that in your proxy file(s) as another TC window as well.

Vegas offers the opportunity to add efx (including TC window) at several levels.

5. Project
4. Bus
3. Track
2. Event
1. Media

In the case of the TC effect, application at Project, Bus, or Track level will all match TC to the timeline. Application at Event level will start TC at the beginning of the clip, as present on the timeline.

If you right-click on the clip in the Project Media bin, select Media FX, you'll be applying such fx at the Media level - this will track with original camera TC, whenevever the clip is used in the project.

(Media-level efx can also be accessed from timeline events by right-clicking and selecting Media FX, not Event FX)

Check out this example. On the left, camera TC, with a reel number dropped in with simple text. On the right, timeline TC (for your project - the new master TC).
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Old August 2nd, 2009, 04:46 PM   #12
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Just as an FYI, running the supplied "Add Timecode to all Media" script applies SOURCE timecode to all clips, whether they're on the timeline or not.
I edited a multicam show last fall and was pleasantly surprised to discover this feature :-)
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Old August 12th, 2009, 04:05 PM   #13
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Hey all, thanks for all the replies and tips! I've sent my editor in Lodz a link to this thread and we discussed it all over the phone and now we're doing some tests to see how his FCP manages with EDL and XML files exported from my Vegas.

My editor is asking: How many versions of XML can Vegas export? Can you choose between 1, 2 or 3, 4 version of XML?
Also he is requesting that when exporting an EDL, if it is possible to select Sony 9600 or CMX 3400 or Sony DigitalCut or CMX DigitalCut.

I tried looking it up in the manual, but couldn't find any of these options.
All I found was File > Save as... > and selecting EDL text file from the Save as type menu

I also found Tools > Sripting > Export EDL or Export XML but not sure if this is what I'm looking for... and there's none of the options mentioned above to choose from.

Thx! :)
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Old August 30th, 2009, 12:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi Head View Post
Hey all, thanks for all the replies and tips! I've sent my editor in Lodz a link to this thread and we discussed it all over the phone and now we're doing some tests to see how his FCP manages with EDL and XML files exported from my Vegas.

My editor is asking: How many versions of XML can Vegas export? Can you choose between 1, 2 or 3, 4 version of XML?
Also he is requesting that when exporting an EDL, if it is possible to select Sony 9600 or CMX 3400 or Sony DigitalCut or CMX DigitalCut.

I tried looking it up in the manual, but couldn't find any of these options.
All I found was File > Save as... > and selecting EDL text file from the Save as type menu

I also found Tools > Sripting > Export EDL or Export XML but not sure if this is what I'm looking for... and there's none of the options mentioned above to choose from.

Thx! :)
XML is just a way organising data, using plain text but with specific tags & syntax etc. Many DAW & NLE session - project - EDL's can use it but are very & fundamentally different. Eg there is Apple XML as used in FCP, Steinberg XML used in Nuendo & Cubase for their "track Archive". Adobe Audition session XML etc .
And Vegas has both a simple txt EDL & a XML based one that is exclusive to Vegas. That for sure 100% guaranteed FCP will not understand.

A program called Pro Convert by SSL
Solid State Logic | Music
can read write Vegas XML or Txt based EDL and convert to OMF, Apple XML, Protools and other formats. But it only handles 1 video clip.

AATranslator - Home Page
At less that a 20th of the price, can with the current v1.3 release read Sony Vegas Txt based EDL's including multiple video clips and convert to variety of formats.

BTW I am one of the developers. Sony Vegas XML import is fully beta tested & ready to go, we also have ALE, the Avid Log Exchange format ready too (which Apple FCP Cinema tools can use fine). The delay is because we want to get ProTools support in better shape.

To be honest I'm not clear why your editor in Poland is interested in XML's, CMX etc.

i can't see why you don't just assemble / rough cut your video material, checking adjusting all the audio to be in sync then render both into HD files of say an hour so length with new continuous timecode. Then just import into FCP. But I have probably miss-understood your intended workflow.

Anyway contact AATranslator - Home Page , we may well have a cost effective solution.
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