Canon Vixia HV30 24P Footage In Vegas...I am Confused! at DVinfo.net

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Old August 12th, 2009, 07:40 AM   #1
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Canon Vixia HV30 24P Footage In Vegas...I am Confused!

Hello, so I wanted to add some footage to a concert that was shot with a Panasonic AG-DVX100 in 24P.

I have a Canon GL2, which does not shoot 24P and as my backup a Vixia HV30, which I discovered did shoot in 24P! I thought this was very lucky because I was planning to hang this camera out of the side of a car and do some other dangerous things so it was safer for me to put at risk.

When I captured the HD 24P footage shot on the HV30 to Vegas 9 64 Bit, the HV30 footage properties reads at 29.97 frame rate and the DVX100 footage properties reads at 23.97 frame rate. No matter the project settings I use, I see a lot of blurry frames in my HV30 HD Footage.

I've done a lot of searching and reading all day yesterday, learned about the 60i wrapper and all that. I have found out that people have to go through nutty workflows to get HV30 footage to be interpreted as 24P in Vegas. Basically they have to transcode the footage, which seems to me to defeat the purpose of shooting in 24P in the first place.

***

The Question is: How do I get my Vixia HV30 HD 24P footage to be interpreted as 24P in Vegas? Will this be easier to accomplish in Premiere Pro CS3 or CS4?

It looks to me that in order to avoid some insane workflow I have to use 1 of 3 softwares: DVFilm Maker, Magic Bullet, or Tmpegenc Xpress to re-encode the footage. Is that so?

If I do have to use one of those 3 pieces of software, does anyone have a recommendation? Without knowing much, I would probably want to use Tmpegenc first because in times past I have used their software and really liked it, then Magic Bullet because I have heard so much about it, then finally DVfilm Maker, which the main attraction seems to be price.

Or perhaps there is a Cineform solution? Or another alternative?

I'll keep looking, but I am at my rope's end here. My feeling is that footage shot at 24P should be easily brought in and interpreted as 24P by video editing software.

Please help me out or point me to a solution that doesn't involve 47 steps! ;-)

Thanks,

Ken
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Old August 12th, 2009, 08:58 AM   #2
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See if Eugenia's Faking PF24 Pulldown Removal with Vegas tutorial is of any help to you.
If you don't know about it, HV20 is a great resource for HV20, 30 & 40 users.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 09:36 AM   #3
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Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply.

I saw Eugenia's tutorial yesterday. I gave it a try, but I don't want to lose quality. I'll be adding some effects etc. and I thin k the quality loss will be noticeable.

In another tutorial I saw, there seemed to be about 5 pieces of software to install and what I would consider to be a winding process to finally arrive at 24P, and while I don't doubt that it works, it seems to me that there should be a much simpler way.

I found another thread today that says that Cineform HDV and a couple of their other products will simply capture the footage to proper 24P.

I think this is the correct way to go, as time and straightforwardness matters to me in this case.

Do you or anyone else have a recommendation as to what is the right software to capture the HV30 to 24P? I am looking over Cineform's site and they have several solutions but I am not certain which one is the right choice, or if there are other software packages that will perform the same function.

Ken
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Old August 12th, 2009, 09:45 AM   #4
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Neoscene I think.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 09:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth Fisher View Post
I'll keep looking, but I am at my rope's end here. My feeling is that footage shot at 24P should be easily brought in and interpreted as 24P by video editing software.
Why are you at your rope's end? You bought a camera that doesn't shoot in the format you want. That is not the NLE's fault. The NLE is seeing EXACTLY what the camera recorded. A 60i stream with 24p inside. The DVX can shoot exactly the same thing. It's the 24p mode. When you shoot 24pA on the DVX then it's actually true 24p (or 23.976 to be exact).

This was necessary because when the DVX was introduced, most NLEs did not have the ability to edit true 24p on a 24p timeline. They only understood 60i. So Pulldown had to be used just like when you have Hollywood film that gets put on TV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth Fisher View Post
Please help me out or point me to a solution that doesn't involve 47 steps! ;-)

Thanks,

Ken
1. Put your 60i wrapped 24p onto the timeline.

2. Render it lossless to a REAL 24p file.

3. Place that new file next to the 24p output from the DVX.

4. Edit.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 10:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Why are you at your rope's end? You bought a camera that doesn't shoot in the format you want. That is not the NLE's fault. The NLE is seeing EXACTLY what the camera recorded. A 60i stream with 24p inside. The DVX can shoot exactly the same thing. It's the 24p mode. When you shoot 24pA on the DVX then it's actually true 24p (or 23.976 to be exact).
I don't believe I blamed the NLE. In fact, if there is blame to be assigned here, I would look at Canon. In the HV30 manual I did not see that it gave any heads up that the 24P mode will require additional steps to actually be read as 24P, it merely states: "High-definition video at 1080i specifications for recording with a progressive frame rate of 24 FPS" I think most people would understand that to mean they would simply get 24P when they capture, just like I did when I captured the DVX tapes.

Looking back and knowing what I know now, I guess that means "24P in a 60i wrapper", but that isn't really evident unless one has been through this before with this camera (Which I haven't) or has spent hours reading through the various threads and other material on the web. Unless there is some quick reference that sums it all up neatly that I have missed. I don't think that I am alone on this one.

In any case, I did not buy the HV30 to shoot 24P, I just thought that it would be useful in order to attempt to match the DVX footage as much as possible. My mistake. I should have shot it 30P.

Quote:
1. Put your 60i wrapped 24p onto the timeline.

2. Render it lossless to a REAL 24p file.

3. Place that new file next to the 24p output from the DVX.

4. Edit.
Thanks for the instructions. It seems quite simple, and I think this solution should be out there right next to all the complex ones. It looks to be the most straightforward solution available, with no need to install extra software. Hopefully they will be helpful to the next person who finds their self in my situation.

To be certain, in step 1, the timeline preset I would choose should be: HDV 1080-60i, correct?

Thanks,

Ken
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Old August 12th, 2009, 10:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth Fisher View Post
I don't believe I blamed the NLE.
"My feeling is that footage shot at 24P should be easily brought in and interpreted as 24P by video editing software."

24p is the consumer "buzzword" these days. Everyone wants to say they shoot it. Fact is, darn few cameras do. And certainly none of the tape based consumer cams I am aware of do. It's just marketing-speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth Fisher View Post
To be certain, in step 1, the timeline preset I would choose should be: HDV 1080-60i, correct?

Thanks,

Ken
No idea. I don't handle 24p inside 60i footage. Someone familiar with this should respond. Even someone who shoots 24p over SDI could probably help since that does the same thing.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 11:11 AM   #8
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Perrone,

Thanks for your advice.

Quote:
"My feeling is that footage shot at 24P should be easily brought in and interpreted as 24P by video editing software."
That statement was not blaming the NLE. I am sorry if that is what you understood from that statement. If I was blaming the NLE I would have written: "Vegas is screwing up my 24P footage!" or something similar to that. But I don't think an argument over semantics is really helpful to this forum or other people who may be facing this same issue.

Quote:
24p is the consumer "buzzword" these days. Everyone wants to say they shoot it. Fact is, darn few cameras do. And certainly none of the tape based consumer cams I am aware of do. It's just marketing-speak.
And that is why I say that if there is blame to be assigned, it is to be assigned to Canon - for marketing 24P with this camera when in fact it "kind of shoots 24P" but one has to buy a third-party software or jump through hoops to get it to be interpreted as 24P by an NLE. Like I wrote above, if I knew then what I know now, I would have shot 30P or maybe even just regular interlaced footage.

Thanks again,

Ken
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Old August 12th, 2009, 11:22 AM   #9
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Understood Ken.

Those of us who've been around a little while and saw 24p enter the lexicon of the home video shooter are well aware of this strange mix of the film and video world.

In simpler times video was 60i and film was 24p. Period.

The Panasonic DVX really threw a monkey wrench into all that on the consumer side when it could actually record REAL 24p to tape. Like many, I jumped on it and bought one. Luckily, Sony Vegas was one of very few NLEs that could actually understand the native 24p footage. But I watched as other NLEs struggled badly. I had Adobe Premiere at the time and it was hopeless. It took quite some time before all the major NLE's began to support 24p.

To a similar degree, we've see the same thing as HDV came in, and now AVCHD. Different flavors cause compatibility problems. And now there is 60p video out there too.

And if you think the transition from 30p to 29.98 is tricky, just wait until you need to do a 30p to 24p. That will REALLY get your head swimming! And don't even mention 30p to 25p for PAL delivery..
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Old August 12th, 2009, 01:13 PM   #10
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Hi Perrone,
I'll tell ya, my head is ready to burst! I had been mostly out of the Digital Video world the past 5 years concentrating mainly on web development. Now that I am back, there are so many developments and I see that I really have a lot to learn! And I definitely have to make some more informed choices before I jump in with HD.

By the way, I have to say thanks again. You've explained to me why just about every videographer I come across these days has a Panasonic DVX model. I've always been a Canon man, and just a short 5-7 years ago, it looked like Canon was the choice of most in the prosumer 3-5 K range with the XL models, and as I recall, Panasonic was just starting to make some noise with HD cameras.

I am starting to think about getting a current camera, and even though Canon has been great for me in the past, I may have to re-think my brand.

One thing that hasn't changed is that I liked editing with Vegas years ago, and I still like it better than Premiere or Final Cut. (No offense to those who like those editing packages.)

Take it easy,

Ken
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